Jazz & Jazz

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 9

Clarinet versus Saxophone

This debate resonates loudly with Debate No 8: New Orleans & UK Traditional Jazz

Initiator:
Trefor Williams

Recently I had a close encounter while on a gig. The band was steaming and we had a strong attacking alto saxist doing his business. However, during the interval, I was confronted by a guy giving me a lecture on the necessity of having a clarinet and not a saxophone. I thought this neanderthal attitude had disappeared by now, but this guy was a definite throw-back. How sad he’s missed out on nearly one hundred years of great saxophonists. I half expected to see his body split open and an alien leap out. Later he was heard shouting about being ripped off because the club announced it would have to increase the admission by £2 next year.

Perhaps he should return to the old comforts of his “Jazz club at the end of the universe”. The trouble is there is no atmosphere there.

Trefor Williams.

Martin Bennett We still suffer from the mouldy fig listeners who haven’t yet developed a taste for saxophones. There are plenty of clubs I could name that won’t have bands that don’t have a clarinet as the main reed. Saxophone is a dirty word that has to be kept away from clubs that promote what they refer to as British Trad. This has been said to me by several club organisers who refuse to book bands with saxophones – and there are hundreds of jazz followers who think that way. Howard Murray, our reed player, was challenged by a man in Colchester Jazz Club who severely berated him for playing saxophones and soon left but not before HM had said to him ‘when I started playing music I didn’t have you in mind!’

Andrew Fawcett thought everybody liked saxophones…….

John GodsillHi Trefor, Yes it seems that English people prefer clarinets to saxophones and they feel that a clarinet is the “correct” jazz instrument! I’m a saxophone player so am aware of this. Basically English “trad” bands use clarinets and hardly ever have a saxophone, but in New Orleans the reverse is true. Two years ago I was there for 18 days and had 19 jobs

Regards,
John Godsill.

Peter Mark Butler April, 2010, John. I was there during the French Quarter Festival when you played sax with The Liberty Hall Stompers in Preservation Hall.

Chez Chesterman Eurotrad police still at work, eh?

Bob Ironside Hunt Some years ago I was playing in a particular Midlands jazz club along with clarinet and sax player Zoltan Sagi… We were getting the instruments out when a bloke sat at a front row table, arms folded, nodded towards Z’s tenor and said “Are you going to play that thing?” … to which Z replied “I thought I might….”

Without another word, the bloke got up and left, never to be seen again.

Andrew Fawcett when I was in New Orleans for about 18 hours in 1982, I went to five gigs in one night, finally crawling into bed at about 5 a.m. Only one of these was “trad”, and it was by far the lowest energy and lowest quality of all I witnessed.

Bob Ironside Hunt Theoretically “trad” shouldn’t exist in New Orleans… But there are so many ex-pats out there now that I guess they took it with them. “Trad” is a peculiarly British form, though its dubious influence spread onto the continent (particularly Germany) during the 50s/early 60s. There is an especially idiosyncratic form of the idiom we refer to as “Euro-Trad”… it has to be heard to be believed…..

Andrew Fawcett OK, I said “Trad”, but what I meant was I saw tired old New Orleans musicians playing tired old music rather poorly.

Christine Woodcock I’ve had that happen to my band. We were playing at a club run by a rabid New Orleans fan. My reed player, who had only been playing with us for a short time, picked up his alto sax, as required by the arrangement. The organiser of the club, sitting in the audience, shouted at him to put that damn thing down! My poor guy didn’t pick it up again for weeks. But what ignorance! The Sam Morgan band in the 1920s – and you can’t get more New Orleans than the Sam Morgan band! – used saxophones all the time. Grrr…

Jim Lodge Johnny Dodds, Jimmie Noone, Sidney Bechet, Lorenzo Tio, Omer Simeon, Barney Bigard, Albert Nicholas, Buster Bailey, George Lewis etc, etc all played saxophone at one time or another in a jazz context. Others who more surprisingly played the instrument occasionally include Kid Ory and Ken Colyer. How anyone faced with such evidence can claim that saxophones are unacceptable in New Orleans/Trad jazz is clearly incapable of rational thought. As an afterthought, Lester Young played wonderful jazz on the clarinet that would have sounded terrific in any jazz unit of any persuasion.

Bob Ironside Hunt What we are failing to understand here is that these so-called fans have a very restricted view of what they think is “THE” music. Lets not confuse “trad” with New Orleans style for a start… and also its different again from “dixieland”… Most of the “die-hards” in the UK jazz clubs will have grown up listening to British “trad”…. Ball, Barber and Bilk, Lightfoot etc etc… They probably would have hated Alex Welsh because his band swung in a different (American) way. We all know how the “fans” treated Humph’s sax player, Bruce Turner at Birmingham Town Hall in 1953… a big banner saying “Go Home Dirty Bopper”!!! These “fans” know nothing about New Orleans, Chicago Style, Dixieland or, God forbid, Swing….. Its just a nostalgia trip for most of them, harking back to their younger days when for a few brief years in the 50s British Trad ruled the roost.

Maggie Peplow We had a regular at the Waterworks who every time anyone picked up a saxophone would march up to the desk and demand his money back and leave. When Sammy Rimington came and we were sold out, I was advised that we could squeeze a few people in who hadn’t got tickets. Sure enough he turned up, I told him we were sold out but he said he’d phoned and been told he could get in. I then told him that I couldn’t let him have a ticket because as soon as Sammy picked up the sax he would want his money back thereby not only depriving the club of a tenner but also probably depriving a real jazz fan, who didn’t mind what Sammy played, of a ticket. He left without another word.

Jeff Matthews Interesting points indeed. I play clarinet and sax. Plus because I can read music and arrangements I have been treated with suspicion by some musicians on both sides. I confess I love clarinet in N.O. style bands. Yes I do know the frontline history too. See my doco for free on www.trad jazzonline.com. It is not bias it is preference. I do play sax and clarinet in my ‘Chicago style’ band. Some tunes suit clarinet and others benefit from a ‘voice’ change to sax. That is the musical answer to the debate to my mind. I see tired bands playing modern jazz badly too. I can give you names of musicians who play NO jazz (and modern too) who would knock your musical socks off. I saw great trad in NO. Most of the pros play all styles plus show music. They have to show energy otherwise it’s their last pay check. No different to the musicians of the 1920’s. Is music an art, entertainment or a business?

Chez Chesterman Bob Hunt has got it right. There are none so blind etc etc. Most of these critics have not even listened to the originators of what became traditional jazz – Armstrong, Oliver, Morton, Dodds, Keppad etc, so they have no knowledge of the feel and structure of that music. Most of the British players of the 40s, 50s and 60s did learn from recordings of the greats and from those discovered in the revival, like Bunk and Lewis. Most of us copied them and attempted to ape the style of our favourites, just like apprentice painters who learned their trade by copying the works of masters before evolving our own style.

However in the late fifties and beyond, when British, European and other revivalist players started to be able to make a living at playing and clubs sprang up here and on the Continent, recordings of such bands became cheaply available and the emphasis amongst the jazz public changed. They wanted to hear music played by their peers, and that music evolved into the trad and Eurotrad that abounds today. No matter, since jazz is a music which evolves and everybody is entitled to an opinion. However it is not “strictly New Orleans” jazz, it is a largely British invention – a parody if you like. Take the banjo, for instance. It was scarcely used in NO prior to the invention of recording during which it enjoyed a popularity for some three years before electric recordings got better and double basses and guitars could be properly recorded. The banjo then faded out until the American jazz collectors like Bill Russell, started putting bands together insisting on the inclusion of a banjo. But British and European bands and in particular the people who go to see them, regard the banjo, a wonderful instrument when properly played, as the essential instrument for playing traditional style jazz. However, the guitar, string bass and drums were certainly the principal rhythm section used in NO, latterly augmented by the piano. If sax players get it on the nose from the jazz ignorantii, just imagine what a traditional jazz band that chooses not to use a banjo has to put up with.

John Petters I played at a well known jazz venue in Essex, with the Gresty White Ragtimers. John Crocker was depping for Goff Dubber that night and got there early to set up. A woman walked in and saw no banjo. Where’s the banjo, she asked. JC replied, there isn’t one. She sat there with a hatchet face the whole session.

Jeff Matthews Just watching an interview with Alice Cooper, Rock Deva. He says that he fears for the next rock generation. They all wear the same clothes and have nothing distinctive about them. Probably sound the same too. I am paraphrasing and interpreting what he said. Is the same happening in classic jazz?

Peter Mark Butler I consider it important to include here Pete Lay’s opinion as Editor of Just Jazz, in his December, 2012, editorial in response to Trefor and all those who have posted comments:

“Well, well, well, what is wrong with saxophones? It seems the proverbial clarinet versus saxophone argument is rearing its head again. It is something that seems to recur every couple of decades.

“In this month’s edition [of Just Jazz], not only do we have an argument in favour of saxophones, we also an excellent thought provoking response in favour of the clarinet having its rightful place in a traditional jazz band. Then, in my presence, we have a conversation that took place with one of our top clarinettists/saxophonists, which was not only highly embarrassing, but also showed the ignorance of the chap who commented: “I do hope he doesn’t play the saxophone.” Just to say, the exchanges between the two men did bring up a very interesting point, and that is how much do our jazz club audiences know about jazz?

“From the creation of jazz in the 1900s until the New Orleans Revival and the British trad revival of the early 1950s, the saxophone had its rightful place in jazz, with it being omnipresent in most jazz bands and nobody questioned its presence.

“The blame for this ignorance lies squarely on the shoulders of the British Trad Band, which favoured the clarinet over the saxophone and thus created its own enigma.

“Some of the best jazz has been played on a saxophone – Sidney Bechet (soprano sax), Capt. John Handy (alto sax), Coleman Hawkins (tenor sax) etc, so please give the saxophone the respect it deserves.”

Pete Lay, Editor, Just Jazz

Bill Bissonnette And Pete Lay himself made a wonderful album with saxophonist George Probert.

Speakeasy Bootleg-Band We have sax and NO banjo. God Save The Duke.

Chez Chesterman The ignorance of some so-called traditional jazz fans is astounding.

Louis Lince To say nothing of some bands

Christine Woodcock In my band, we have a banjo, a sousaphone, and a guy who plays clarinet AND sax, which is what you need if you want to play classic 1920s jazz. If you don’t know the rightful place of the sax in jazz, you don’t deserve to call yourself a jazz fan. Once, playing at a jazz club, the organiser – a rabid New Orleans fan – shouted from the audience for my reed player to put that damn sax down. What! He’s never heard the Sam Morgan band? Prat.

Jim McIntosh In my band we have a bassoon, a xylophone, an accordion, bag-pipes, pan-pipes, didgeridoos and a bugle and castanets.

Christine Woodcock I’ve also got a didgeridoo. Trouble is, I haven’t mastered the circular breathing….

Jim Lodge It ain’t what you play, it’s the way that you play it. That goes equally for choice of instrument as for choice of material. Those who bind others with rules of their own making are bigots, and should be ignored.

Jim McIntosh Agreed. On Friday night I have to play solo banjo in a clock shop in Schwerin. I may even SING!! Must practice my circular drinking!

Christine Woodcock As a slide bone player, I’m not a big fan of the valve trombone. However, I AM a big fan of banjos and classic 1920s jazz. Nevertheless, I still think this is the coolest jazz clip ever: Jazz On A Summer’s Day – Jimmy Giuffre Three

Kay Leppard That Jazz on a Summer’s Day film blows me away every time I see it. Visited Newport last time we were in the US – great place.

Peter Mark Butler THIS DEBATE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. TIME TO END SUCH BRITISH TRADITIONAL JAZZ PETTINESS AND GET BACK TO NEW ORLEANS ORIGINS.

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Jazzers Debate No 10

Musicians’ Pay

Initiator:
Peter Mark Butler

A TRULY HOT ISSUE FOR BANDS, BAND LEADERS, MUSICIANS, CLUBS AND FANS!

I was copied in on an email recently regarding overseas jazz musicians and bands enquiring about potentials for UK tours and “likely remuneration”, or rather, what they should charge.

I was also copied in on the answer and what they could expect to be paid, exclusive of expenses and accommodation. An addendum was added to the effect of: “They may be on a ‘jolly’ and not expecting too much!”

I received another message the very same day from a superb jazz trumpeter, good friend and fellow Jazzer – a “younger” musician at that! He wrote:

“Hi Peter

“From the cover of the latest issue of Musician magazine: ‘the MU is concerned about musicians being asked to work for free. Work not Play is a campaign that aims to raise awareness of the issue and debunk the myth that says because we enjoy it we don’t need to be paid. The aim is simple – to ensure that all professional musicians get paid for what they do.’

“It’s food for thought. Maybe we need to be pointing this out forcefully to all the bands going out and working for 25 or 30 quid. If you are not worth a proper fee, are you worth listening to? Should you be playing in public anyway?

“The issues raised by bands and musicians about audiences and the strength of traditional jazz is undermined when they undermine the value of what they do. We won’t have a strong jazz resurgence unless and until younger players can see that they can make some sort of living from the music. And they won’t see that when leading musicians in the field are driving hundreds of miles for a £50 ‘fee’.”

“All the best.

Peter Leonard”

NOT ONLY IS THIS A HOT ISSUE, IT’S A VITAL ISSUE!

So much so that as my friend Peter says, The Musician’s Union has launched a Fair Pay Campaign under the banner of “WORK NOT PLAY”! Their website states:

“The MU [has launched] a campaign for fair pay for musicians which can be found at www.worknotplay.co.uk.

“The campaign comes in response to the growing number of examples of musicians being expected to work for free whilst other workers involved in the event are being paid, and the website highlights many individual stories as told by musicians.

“Share your comments on Twitter using #WorkNotPlayMU

“Musicians from all genres are invited to sign up and share their stories of being asked to work for no fee.”

John Smith, MU General Secretary, says:

“We are concerned at a growing trend of professional musicians not being paid for their work. In this era of illegal downloading, live revenue is incredibly important and musicians rely on it to be able to survive.

“Too many people seem to think that music and entertainment are a hobby rather than a career, and are unaware of the years of training and hard work that it takes to become a professional performer.

“It is difficult enough to earn a decent living as a professional musician these days, and, headline artists aside, it is not a highly paid profession. We’re looking to challenge the idea that musicians should be happy to work for free, and we’re delighted that so many musicians and music fans are joining up to this campaign.”

Posted: November 14, 2012

John Petters First of all, I hate the term ‘work for free’. It is grammatically incorrect – the surplus ‘for’ creeps in everywhere these days. Trad bands are their own worst enemies. Firstly, many will play for next to nothing. Secondly, they do not expect to get travel expenses. Thirdly, most of the clubs do not charge enough on the door to make it a viable profession. I’ll not mention the free admission venues!

As you know, Peter, I organised the final tour for Wild Bill & Art Hodes. I put them into proper venues and paid a good rate. I’m constantly being bombarded with requests to play at my festivals, but bringing overseas performers is not viable.

Chez Chesterman Attaboy, John! The Manchester band that I play with goes to Benelux countries, Germany and Denmark on a regular basis. Accommodation is always provided and at least one major meal per gig, usually together with audiences who happily pay good money for a good night out. But when we try to put a tour together in southern England – well – what a difference. Overseas bands, who used to play here for peanuts, have wised up and the good ones are rarely seen here now, we just get the cheapskates.

John Petters Bang on, Chez – as usual. The Europeans normally get it right. The idea that musos have to buy their own drinks is regarded as crazy by the German musos I’ve worked with. It may be unpopular to state – but it could be that the present generation of jazz clubs needs to die out before a more professional approach can be taken. There are some which are run very well – I can think of Sylvies’, Wickham Bishops & West Chiltington, Friends of Upton, etc, as examples where the fees are always good and very good promotion ensures good houses. Derek Watson has said he is also having to work harder at Wickham Bishops to, in effect, stand still. Harlow has not been good this season. We have been hit with an unfortunate number of deaths and illness amongst some of our most regular customers. The answer is to increase the publicity.

Chez Chesterman You’ve got a good core audience at Harlow, John and one with wide jazz tastes. In that respect you are a lucky lad but there’s nowt you can do about those who shuffle off. More power to your elbow.

Jeff Matthews Hot issue indeed! Timely too as I am looking at a series of gigs for 2013 and looking at the fees offered and the distances to travel. Is the gig worth doing? And that is the crux of the matter. Your trumpet professional has made a strong point. But “forcefully” suggesting that any musician play for a decent fee or not play at all is not going to work. Suggesting that someone who plays for £25 or £30 might not be of a decent standard is also not helpful and is a little high handed, even though not intended to be. There are many, many fine musicians playing today who are of pro standard, indeed might be ex pro’s and might be retired, who want to continue playing the music they love. Are you going to forcefully insist that they shouldn’t?

John Petters Good points, Jeff. However, to expect anyone to turn out – at whatever level – for £25 or £30 is not on. The Trad Jazz circuit has suffered from an amateur approach for too many years. Free boozer trad for example. How can you justify a high fee if your client can see you playing free in a boozer? Anything worth having is worth paying for. Just because a pro may be retired they should not be expected to play at cut price.

Jeff Matthews So the answer might be to accept the present musicians as they are and start to work on the clubs and venues to pay more for the bands. If they are paying good money, they will want good bands. Surely there will always be different levels of band. Top touring name bands who will always get the money they ask for and ‘boiler’ bands who keep the jazz interest going and in the minds of local audiences. After all, if it wasn’t for pub and club bands up and down the country there would be little else promoting this music and it does act as a ‘funnel’ for the better festivals and events put on by ‘names’. Take that away and I respectfully suggest that, genius musician or not, name band or not, pro or not, you will be reduced to a tiny few people wanting to see what in effect will become, a musical museum novelty act.

John Petters I think that is what it will become eventually, Jeff, unless there is a revival that grabs the young.

Jeff Matthews I agree John, nobody playing this music should be expected to accept sub pay lower than the national minimum. I am not sure how this can be changed in the present economy and audience mind set. But there must also be opportunities where people can develop their abilities and hone their craft. Professionals might find it helpful all round to educate those trying to play and promote this traditional jazz.

I believe the revival must come from middle aged musicians not necessarily young musicians only. Times have changed and attitudes amongst young musicians are different. The conditions which led to the revivalist jazz movement of the late 40’s and 50’s are no longer here. There was a passion, in some cases fuelled by political idealism. Tribal even – trad versus bebop. I wasn’t part of that. My interest, which developed later, was purely music based.

John Petters Yes, all sorts of things there, Jeff. I think the remnants of the 50s revival looked upon it as their ‘pop’ music. So often you find a nostalgia attitude. Some delved right into the roots – others stuck with the Ball – Barber – Bilk idiom. It probably needs to start again in colleges and universities, but as you have indicated, times have changed. I think it is likely, in years to come, that traditional jazz will be regarded like classical music – played in concert format. Barring a revival, I see no other reality.

Bill Bissonnette Every musician puts his own value on his own playing. The musician who will take a $50.00 gig [excuse me for using US currency values. I’m not up on my exchange rates!] is a $50.00 musician. Anybody who would ever pay him more is nuts. I stopped playing local gigs decades before I retired because I would not work for the low rates offered locally. When good friends asked me to do a gig as a personal favour and offered the local rate to me, I would say sure I’ll do it – free – as a personal favour. Come when I want. Play what I want. Leave when I want. But don’t insult me by offering anything lower than my standard fee. That’s why, as those of you who have played with me occasionally in Fritzels in New Orleans know, I never shared in the “kitty.” The idea of performing for $10.00 or $20.00 was always repulsive to me. But the idea of jamming with good friends for “kicks,” as Kid Tom would say, is OK with me anytime.

Jeff Matthews Chez’s comments are interesting as they take some of the emphasis off musicians and underline cultural differences between Europe and its attitude toward the music, and our own here in the UK. I know of one musician who played ‘trad’ across France for a number of years and he was paid generously. I know of a singer, not jazz, but classics to classic pop, who is paid exceedingly well in Austria. Perhaps we should be discussing how we change things culturally here in the UK rather than looking as closely at our jazz bands. What do you think?

Another very interesting post, this time from Bill. I think a lot of bands jam with friends for ‘kicks’ over here in the UK too. The whole purpose is to play the music not to earn money playing it. If £30 or $50 is accepted, it is to cover excessive fuel/gas costs.

Peter Mark Butler I’ll conclude this debate as far as it has gone to date, with the following quotes taken from my article “Analysing the Jazz Scene – Past, Present and Future” (Just Jazz, August, 2012):

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 11

BBC: “Jazz is Dead!”

Initiator:

Peter Mark Butler

BBC Radio 4 recently broadcast a programme called “Jazz is Dead”. Presenter Paul Morley interviewed performers and “passionate punters” in examining the proposition and in his introduction questioned whether, if not dead, jazz is now merely part of the “heritage industry”.

Evan Christopher : “Thank you, Peter Mark Butler. Perhaps like you, this is among my favourite subjects. Questioning whether or not “JAZZ is dead” is ludicrous. There are no degrees of deadness, and the fact that we are even having this dialogue means that jazz is, in fact, “not dead.” Should the discussion then be about the “wellness” or vitality of jazz? Maybe.

From my limited experience, whether or not jazz looks “cool” or who is listening to it or buying it are minor concerns. That said, however, the following elements, placed here in no hierarchical order, do far more damage to the ability of “jazz” to communicate meaningfully than over-bearing BBC programmes, academic blather, or sociocultural frameworks.

1) Sequins, animal print clothing, costumes of any kind and/or funny hats, etc.
2) Mediocre craftsmanship (by standards set by the historical record)
3) Histrionics, gimmickry or exaggerated “showmanship”
4) Extraneous amplification
5) Stupid band-names or musician “nick-names” (especially ones that use alliteration or rhyme or words like “hot,” “dixie,” “stompers,” etc.)
6) Relegating the music to the roles of escapism, nostalgia, sale of alcoholic beverages or the promotion of tourism.

Peter Mark Butler Jazzers, Evan is an outstanding, no, exquisite, jazz clarinetist and I value his input on Jazzers. Check him out at: http://clarinetroad.net/site.php

Jim Lodge Addressing specifically Evan Christopher’s points numbered points 1, 3 and 5:-

1) Many bands wear uniform clothing, and some musicians display eccentricity in dress – not uncommon features in the history of Jazz as I know it.
3) How about Lennie Hastings, George Melly, Cab Calloway, or “Mr Jelly”?
5) Johnny Dodds and his Black Bottom Stompers, Jelly Roll Morton and his Red Hot Peppers, Slow Drag Pavageau, Mr Five by Five, any number of Kings, Dukes, and Counts – I could go on.

My point is that historically Jazz has thrived on personality and “selling” the music. I also perceive that your own take on getting the music in the public eye involves as as one of its planks a measured application of such attention grabbing methods. For me it is about getting the balance right. We should not be over the top but equally we should avoid like the plague any hint of being over serious. I had hoped to make my point with a gentle nudge, and apologise again if I failed in that.

Ivan Halloran With all respect, the deepest, to Mr. Christopher, I now understand that he is an outstanding clarinetist, and has a vast understanding of the jazz genre, but in my ignorance, I truly believed him to be a theorist or academic of some university, with his sombre comments. I have already expressed something of this to Peter yesterday on his Timeline.

Evan Christopher Yes… I guess my comment lost something in the translation, since it was initially on Peter‘s blog. I quipped that his choice of photos, which I suppose were to suggest that jazz isn’t dead because it’s in the capable hands of a handful of young devotees, were actually substantiation that the genre has lost vitality. He asked me to elaborate, and that’s what I came up with. …Wasn’t trying to sound sombre or academic.

I acknowledge that how people view the health of the genre is subjective. Since I started performing this music, I have known people who feel “jazz” is alive and well as long as there’s a pub or Masonic lodge to jam in once a month. Others become hopeful when they see younger musicians take interest in it, regardless of their actual skill level. The BBC piece, however, is questioning the health of “jazz” based on a perceived loss of its potency as a “vital revolutionary force.” But, besides the “jazz is dead” rhetoric, I was turned off by the idea that multiplicity obscures the music’s definition. Furthermore, I loathe discussions of emotional impact vs intellectualism, or innovation vs tradition, as if they are somehow polar opposites and mutually exclusive.

My personal criteria, stated in my comment, is the ability of “jazz” to communicate meaningfully. For me, I didn’t develop a love for Jelly-Roll Morton’s music because he had a diamond in his tooth. I love Louis for his mastery. I love him in spite of things he did to be entertaining, not because of them. What bands did to market themselves in the nascent days of early jazz? Sure, it’s part of the history, but it’s far from a formula to assure that this music will maintain its relevancy.

Ivan Halloran My respect for the above comments of Mr. Christopher deepens.

Jim Lodge My thanks for your well expressed amplification of your initial post, Evan – most of which I completely agree with, especially the “vs” items. I would however respectfully suggest that “serious vs individual presentation” might be added. I did not mean that all bands and musicians should adopt a lighter approach, only that this was a permissible option, and felt that your “far more damage” etc list was in some items perhaps a proscription too far. After all, that would assume that you might wish that those of us with “mediocre craftsmanship” (in which number I would certainly include myself) should cease to inflict ourselves on a (mostly) willing public!

Peter Mark Butler Thank you Evan for taking your time out of your busy schedule to contribute such valid points. And thank you Ivan and Jim for responding. But I would ask fellow Jazzers to read these comments in the context of my “Jazz is Dead” article. I’ll simply add at this stage that I’m encouraged that my Jazzers Group and indeed my Jazz&Jazz website are resulting in such debates. It’s all part of analysing the future for jazz.

Jeff Matthews Now these posts are getting closer to the nitty gritty. It is obvious that jazz isn’t and cannot be dead. However, the way it was perceived and marketed in the past might well be past it’s ‘sell by date’. Each generation of ‘cream’ bands and musicians found their own way to promote themselves so that they earned a living. Each country did this slightly differently dependent on its culture.

The UK was broke post war and needed something to stimulate its youth. There wasn’t the snow plough approach from the media which covers everything and exposes to the public gaze only what it wants seen and can earn money from. Ideology was still part of life. Things had distinct definitions. So as I understand it, a youth saw Revivalist Jazz as something that described them as a group. Earthy, raw, gritty, rebellious, tribal, traditional against modern.

From that core of support it became popular amongst less ideological people because it was actually good fun to listen to. The core spread the word and it took off – in a time when TV was still in its infancy, there were no computers and game machines and dancing was still something that people did and spent time doing

Jazz gigs were also a good place to find a ‘mate’ – I am told.

This has all changed. So I believe we have to use the tools we now have to spread the word that jazz is alive, well and fun to listen to and get involved with. I would be very interested to hear more from Evan who has found his way to the top and also to hear from established bandleaders, club promoters, enthusiasts and pro’s as well as young musicians.

We may have moved away from straw boaters and goatee beards and that may or may not be a good thing, but we have to find something relevant to this age that we can use as a ‘tag’ which will get people’s interest. There will always be ‘cream’ performers like Evan and his contemporaries but under that creamy layer is the larger portion of the milk which through its activity at a local level will always keep jazz alive and well. We just need to be more active and learn how to do it better.

Evan Christopher This is the top? …Geez, glad I won’t have far to fall.

Peter Mark Butler Pandora’s Box and Naval Gazing come to mind! Let’s get a grip! For what it’s worth I’ll refer you all to two of my recent articles which might help Jazzers understand where I’m coming from and what I’m striving for. But when you read them please accept that my love of jazz compensates for the gaps in my knowledge of jazz and that I hope to bring to the table a sense of direction for the future of jazz. To read the articles go to: Keep Doing What You Are Doing and Analysing the Jazz Scene – Past, Present and Future. My thanks to Just Jazz editor Pete Lay for running these articles.

Jeff Matthews Hi Evan. You should see the view from where we are who are trying to swim up towards the cream. All dangling legs from our viewpoint.

Peter Mark Butler Meantime, watch out for  BBC4’s Planned Analysis of Traditional British Jazz. I’m posting this courtesy of Fred Burnett‘s Jazz North West site.

“NEWS UPDATE:

” I had an enquiry from Rebecca Mounsey at the BBC trying to contact Trevor Carlisle about his years with the Merseysippi Jazz Band during 1954-1964. I had a lovely chat with Trevor, and was able to pass on his phone number. Rebecca got back to me to tell me, ‘I’m just off the phone from speaking with Trevor, and it was a pleasure. I’m setting up an interview with him for a documentary that we are producing on Traditional British Jazz for the spring. The programme should go out in May on BBC Four, so do keep an eye out for it!.”

Peter Mark Butler It could be a fascinating follow up to their “Jazz is Dead” programme.

Fred Burnett Cheers Peter, I can’t help but wonder what slant they’ll put on it.

Peter Mark Butler Jazzers, don’t forget to watch out for this radio programme!

Pat Halcox, 1930 to 2013

Upon hearing about Pat’s passing, my close friend and neighbour Bob Thomas wrote this very touching tribute to him which I am delighted to publish in Jazz&Jazz.

It’s a strange old world when you think how it is that a man with so much talent as Pat Halcox can pass away as he has. One tends to think that such wonderful musicians will go on giving us so much pleasure for ever.

I first met Pat in the late sixties when as cornetist with the Potters Bar Brass Band I had a burning ambition to play jazz music. At the time I was running a garage in Chalk Farm, Camden Town, and needed to obtain a long cornet in order to fulfil my ambition. I worked close to Lawbacks the brass instrument repairers in Kentish Town so I called in to ask for some advice.

They told me Pat Halcox had a trumpet which he wanted to sell and so I contacted Pat at his home near Hanger Lane.

The instrument turned out to be a Doc Severensen Getzen trumpet and although not quite what I wanted, it was such a beautiful instrument I couldn’t resist it and so I bought it. Unfortunately some time later the Getzen was nicked from my car!

During the negotiations for the trumpet I had the temerity to ask Pat if he could spare the time to give me a few lessons. To my surprise and delight he agreed and so began my association with him.

I remember that at the time he had been waiting for the delivery of a Benge long cornet which was being hand made for him in America. But unfortunately when it was being delivered to him the cargo in the aircraft shifted and crushed his new horn.

Both Pat and Kenny Baker were equal to any trumpet players from America or anywhere else in the world and I am sure that their loss is a sad blow to all jazz musicians.

Old jazzers never die, they simply blow away.

God bless you Pat,

Bob Thomas

Be sure to read the tribute to Pat on The Chris Barber website: