Celebrating the Joy of Jazz
Courtesy of Fred Burnett and Jazz North West,
Jazz&Jazz is pleased to present
Newly formed this year by a nucleus of musicians from the Chris Barber, Kenny Ball and Acker Bilk Bands, The Magnificent Seven Jazz Band is currently taking bookings for 2013/14 via Amy Roberts or Richard Exall. You can see more details at http://jazznorthwest.co.uk/magnif7.htm.
Peter M Butler, Founder of Jazz&Jazz
Early in January, 2013, BBC Radio 4 broadcast a programme called “Jazz is Dead”. In May this year the BBC plans another Radio 4 programme – a documentary on “Traditional British Jazz”. So jazz can’t be dead after all. But whilst disregarding the BBC’s take on jazz, we cannot ignore the fact that jazz is ailing!
When I launched Jazz&Jazz back in the summer of 2011, one of my aims was to to help raise the profile of jazz by inviting bands, musicians and fans to share news and views about the jazz scene. Why? Because as a Johnny-come-lately returnee to jazz just a few years ago I was dismayed at its decline during my years away.
But because Wiktionary describes a Johnny-come-lately as, “a novice” or “upstart” and one who “thinks he can do a better job”, I need to be respectful in my approach.
So the question was how to get the inside story from the mouths of band leaders, musicians and fans?
The Facebook Jazzers Group
I hit upon the plan of launching a my Facebook Jazzers Group so that I could express my concerns, launch debates, and leave it to my fellow Jazzers to give their opinions, reach their own conclusions and even launch debates themselves.
To date, with over 220 on Jazzers and new members joining almost daily, this is proving successful. But cyberspace is ephemeral, fleeting, and no sooner is a debate launched on Jazzers than it can pass into oblivion. The solution to that? Simple: back-link the debates to Jazz&Jazz for further comment and analysis, with outcomes reported back to Jazzers.
So now is the time to begin presenting the Jazzers’ Debates. Who knows, ways forward for giving jazz a new lease of life may be found in time to preempt further conclusions reached by the BBC.
The Debates
I’ve separated the Jazzers’ Debates into the two categories below. Several debates cover some common ground. Put together, all of them contribute to the big picture. The next question was which category to cover first – the negatives or the positives? I decided upon the positives for the future prospects of jazz followed by the negatives, past pitfalls to be overcome if we are to enjoy a resurgence in the joy of jazz!
Examining Future Prospects:
Avoiding Past Pitfalls:
How to begin?
I was also in a quandary how to begin until I received the March, 2013, issue of Just Jazz magazine and read Pete Lay’s editorial. So I quote Pete in introducing the first two debates.
Presentation
The final question was how to present the debates – included in this post as one long screed or separately, with each post under its own heading? I decided upon the latter so each debate follows on from this introduction as a separate post.
Peter Mark Butler
Founder and Moderator of Jazz&Jazz
Initiator
The best introduction to my one of my recent Jazz&Jazz features is from an email I received today from my close friend Ray in Castaic, California: “Good interview with Trefor Williams. One observation from a jazz outsider: it seems as if all the groups are quite elderly. Are there no up & coming younger jazz artists in the UK or the US or elsewhere?”
I replied, “There are, Ray, but admittedly they are few and far between. But that is changing as this feature and other posts in Jazzers show”.
Not just any old festival, this is an Inspirational Jazz Fest! www.jazzandjazz.com
Perhaps I should have rephrased my reply to say that could be changing, so before continuing the debate here is a very apt passage from Pete Lay’s Editorial in Just Jazz, March, 2013:
“We strive to promote youngsters in jazz, but I did get irritated when we received notification of the National Youth Summer School to publish. Great in principal but any youngsters wanting to attend are confronted with various criteria, funding applications, bursaries and more off-putting auditions. More importantly, I do not see any provision where youngsters will be instructed or lectured on the era of jazz which we promote and that our readers enjoy. It seems most young musicians who will attend will have already attained some level of proficiency. I do hope their teachers haven’t ignored Armstrong, Morton, Ory, Henderdson, Russell, etc!
“I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”
Clare Gray was first to respond, commenting with a link to http://swungover.wordpress.com and an article on A Quick Note On Training Bands To Play For Dancers.
Ken Taylor then recommended we watch this video recorded at The Hive, Shrewsbury – “the young band “Brownfield Byrne Quintet went down a storm!” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqznrXpp0QQ
upon which Chris Barber commented “nice thoughtful version of one of my favourites..congratulations.”
This set the ball rolling and to give the debate a boost I posted:
IT’S TIME FOR JAZZERS TO GET INVOLVED!
Time to reinforce the aims and goals of Jazzers and Jazz&Jazz.com.
“The art of life is to know when to seize on accidents and make them milestones.” Chairman Humph. (A gem from Humphrey Lyttelton’s autobiography, “It Just Occurred to Me”).
I stumbled back into jazz just a few years ago, started to paint portraits of jazz musicians, joined the Southern Sounds New Orleans French Quarter Festival tour in 2010, and realised that jazz has reached a woeful low in the popularity stakes.
Frankly put, with ageing bands, musicians and fans, if action isn’t taken soon, jazz and in particular New Orleans jazz will simply fade away, even in New Orleans. Yet there are younger bands, musicians and fans out there to carry the torch, and they need all the support and encouragement we can give them if they are to stay on track.
One solution lies in the forging of relationships between the “oldies” and the “young’uns” – bands, musicians and fans! Cross fertilisation of the skills and thrills of jazz … forging a partnership between older, well established bands and dynamic younger bands and setting a pattern for bringing New Orleans back to the UK.
But it’s not just a matter of watching this space. We want members of the Jazzers Group to get involved. How? By inviting bands, clubs, musicians and fans to join Jazzers and work together to achieve a not so impossible lift off to a sustained revival of New Orleans Jazz, the source of all of our popular forms of music.
I would welcome a proliferation of posts along these lines from north, south, east and west. Let’s get the show on the road.
Read the “About” section of Jazzers. It has more to say about these goals.
Peter Butler
Founder of Jazz&Jazz.com & Jazzers
The following exchange of views ensued:
Martin Bennett As a generalisation, one of the main reasons for what seems to be a lack of interest in the young, is the venue itself. Most of the venues are places modern youngsters wouldn’t be seen dead in. Places full of chairs and tables are of no interest to them. People under 25 prefer to stand – as you will see at festivals and many jazz clubs in Holland, all of which have cheering youngsters to a point of overflow – places where the over 40s wouldn’t want to be seen dead in here in the UK.
Peter Mark Butler A very valid point, Martin, which we need to pay attention to! Such limited venues include pubs yet even pubs are turning jazz away these days. But fans are not prepared to pay sufficient for their jazz to make that difference. As Pete Lay recently wrote to me: “That is why the audience mentality has to change, and it will do, if we can get the younger audience on board – they are used to paying for their nights out.” Somehow we must learn from Holland and Germany. Perhaps it will take a concerted effort to get daring with venues! In fact I included a post on Jazz&Jazz recently based on developments at the Leeds Jazz Club addressing just this point: https://www.jazzandjazz.com/?p=2206 Perhaps we should check up on how Leeds is doing now.
Martin Bennett Leeds Jazz Club runs a Jump Jive dance group in conjunction with the jazz nights. It works very well and all of the Jump Jive dancers are under 30. There is a similar group of dancers from Greater Manchester which turns up at clubs suitably set up. There are no clubs I know of in Manchester working on a regular basis so they have to travel – usually to Jump Jive Bands. Leeds has it sorted.
Peter Mark Butler I believe Jeff Lewis and Speakeasy Bootleg Band are doing something similar in Liverpool, so it can happen. We need to get more on board! As I’ve stressed in my Just Jazz articles and on Jazz&Jazz, fans and even bands must learn not to be so precious and be prepared to “mix it a bit” if traditional jazz is to regroup for a revival.
Clare Gray Jive swing and similar is absolutely thriving at the moment – go to the TwinWood website http://www.twinwoodevents.com/index.html to see what they have on and pics of this year’s great events. We went and although big band is a different ‘fish’ to what most folk in this group are aiming at, there were some other decidedly more jazz-orientated bands there also, as well as a lot more of the 50’s vibe. I’m not suggesting Twinwood is the ideal venue for Trad, Dixie etc, but I think it’s likely that the young ‘keenies’ that we meet at our LindyHop classes will naturally progress to the cooler shades of jazz – in fact I am noticing a lot of them ‘liking’ tracks and bands that definitely are smoother and just as good for them to dance to. So the upshot is, keep the music alive and as public as possible. Keep on pushing it out there and they will come. I agree that it might be that pubs are a dying source – they’re up against so much attack on their profits (non smoking, rising beer prices, more people drinking at home etc) that they can’t really take a punt on bands that might not bring in the drinkers (a lot of these youngsters only drink softies anyway these days – horrors!- whatever the media says about binge drinking). So perhaps the secret is to start looking for big, open venues where jazz events might be held and start building it from there. There is interest in dinner jazz from smaller restaurants and while I know that some bands might blanche at that idea, its all getting the good stuff out there, so don’t knock it if you can get it.
Twinwood Festival is The No. 1 Vintage Music & Dance Festival! www.twinwoodevents.com Twinwood Events hosts the annual Glenn Miller Festival and Rhythm Festival at the historic Twinwood Airfield.
Martin Bennett Jeff’s a good chap and certainly does his bit over in Liverpool and has developed a wider range which works very well.
Clare Gray Good for you Peter. With your determination and contacts you’ll get this party started! Am really hoping the scene starts to open up a bit soon. I’m itching to get into something new – using the Trad, blues, dinner, dance band and other ‘grooves’ I’ve got into since the late 90’s. I’m determined to find some folk to enjoy that with. As a ‘younger’ jazz fan I find it frustratingly difficult to break in with the hardened older players who seem to enjoy ‘noodllng’ (nothing wrong with that) but don’t really want to gig or to push it much. Can’t say I blame them, but where are all those players who want to make a noise??? Get them out of the woodwork and you’ll start a fire!…..
Chez Chesterman Trouble is, if you mention the word jazz the kids will not turn up. To them jazz is a naughty word. Call it swing, play the right tempos and they’ll come flocking in. Forties swing is the one that gets everyone hopping.
Clare Gray I agree. Amongst my fellow jive swing/lindy dancers (many quite a bit younger) there’s a nose-wrinkling at the ‘J’ word – yet they’re tapping their feet and swinging along to it all the same. Perhaps you’re right – give it a different hat and they’ll all want to put it on!
Dave Mayor Members of the Bude Jive club also belong to the Bude Jazz club, most welcome they are too.
Peter Mark Butler It seems all is not lost. Yet, taking the comments received so far, there is a long way to go. To Chez and Clare I’ll respond with a conversation had at the Hemsby Autumn Parade last year. Barry Price asked the girls serving behind the bar if they liked jazz. “No!” was the answer. So, pointing to the stage he asked, “Do you like this kind of music?” And they said yes they did! So he told them this was original, traditional jazz. So the jazz that put them off could well have been ultra modern jazz – you know, the self indulgent stuff you can’t even tap your feet to!
Clare Gray Funny you should say that Peter. When I first started doing the Trad stuff with Bob Thomas, a friend and former colleague laughed when I told him and said “you’re not doing all that dreadful scatting stuff and singing to Shakespeare sonnets are you?” He thought it was hilarious and took the mickey whenever I said we had a gig . One day I was playing some trad in the car when he came with me on a business trip. He was really enjoying it and I turned and said “this is what we do”. He was quite impressed, and although I would never say he’s going to be listening to it by himself, he came along to a gig and had a good old time. I was a bit worried I might offend the group mentioning the truly ‘modern’ jazz, but in my opinion it is that stuff – where no one is playing the same tune or in the same key it seems, and the drummer appears to be building flat pack wardrobes in the background – that puts people off sometimes. This probably makes me sound like a total Philistine, but if we want to draw people in, we must start with what good old Bob calls ‘Happy Jazz’ as well as ‘Dance-y Jazz’ and then we have a better chance of keeping this bird in the air.
Peter Mark Butler I’m keeping this vital debate on the boil on Jazzers for more members to have their say. I will also cross reference it to Jazz&Jazz.com and invite followers’ comments there. We’ve reached the blatantly obvious conclusion that if “traditional” jazz is to make a comeback we, fans and musicians alike, need to be less precious about the purity of the genre. I’m all for “mixing it a bit” and am not against mainstream per se, but we shouldn’t forget the roots of New Orleans jazz and of jazz dance, because I believe if that could be reintroduced the kids would go for it and follow jazz, even if they adapted the dance styles to their own modern tastes. “New forms of jazz dance developed with new music, such as the Charleston, swing, rock and roll, and the Caribbean reggae” (Dancin’ Unlimited: http://goo.gl/X1lOu).
Oh, to be young again!
Jeff Matthews I named my band ‘The Chicago Swing Katz’ because the word ‘Jazz’ has a bad name with many people. Very sad really. I have left ‘jazz’ concerts early because even I was bored with the music. And I am an enthusiast of all kinds of ‘jazz’!
Jim Lodge For me, part of the problem seems to revolve round the “purist” attitude. Some bands and listeners (and some musicians) project an “if it isn’t a carbon copy of (insert original of choice) it’s wrong”. This leads to a situation where we end up with a glut of what “Popular Music” refers to as “Tribute Bands”, and their musician equivalents. Such a path can only lead to a joyless stultifying conformity, without life or excitement.
Jeff Matthews Ref: Jim’s purist comment, I know musicians who say that “if you are not black and born in New Orleans before 1939, you don’t play jazz”. My trip to New Orleans to attend the jazz course there showed me that many purists are equating all New Orleans jazz with the revivalist Music they heard which didn’t reflect all the different jazz and characters involved. It was a city filled to the brim with music of all kinds played by musicians of different technical abilities. Most had remarkable facility and many were highly proficient music readers. They had to be in order to survive. And there is room for all styles. It’s all wonderful music.
Tim Penn Well Jazzers – I think this may be what Peter may be talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9esH2rw-wF8&feature=g-upl Note – saxophones and electric bass!!! And this was preceded by a version of Junco Partner and followed by Ray Charles’ ‘What I Say’ (His birthday on Sept 23rd – so we paid a few tributes this night). The evening finished off with a funky version of The Meters Hey Pocky Way – which veered off into using some of the Miles Davis “So What” minor inversions and a little bit of Cecil Tayloresque Free Form piano over the Funk.
Is this a step too far for the traditional audience for Jazz? I guess only time will tell. But many of us see this 20th century evolution of New Orleans based music as something to be celebrated and embraced. But then I remember my dear departed friend Mac McGann telling how he was summarily kicked out of the trad jazz band he was playing in in the late 50s / early 60s – because he brought a guitar along to a gig instead of the tenor banjo.
Peter Mark Butler Right on the mark, Tim! If jazz is to make a comeback fans have got to accept change, or as I put it, “mixing it a bit”. After all, the story of jazz has always been about improvisation, mixing it a bit, and it’s no different today. Especially if we are to appeal to younger fans.
“Kicked out for playing guitar instead of banjo,” you say! Don’t tell Tony Rico this. Martin Bennett recently commented: “There are plenty of clubs I could name that won’t have bands that don’t have a clarinet as the main reed. Saxophone is a dirty word that has to be kept away from clubs that promote what they refer to as British Trad. This has been said to me by several club organisers who refuse to book bands with saxophones – and there are hundreds of jazz followers who think that way. Howard Murray, our reed player, was challenged by a man in Colchester Jazz Club who severely berated him for playing saxophones and soon left but not before HM had said to him ‘when I started playing music I didn’t have you in mind!'”
Peter Mark Butler An elderly fan recently cornered me to voice his criticism of a particular very impressive trombonist for being too flamboyant, “not subtle enough, not smooth enough.” At that very same gig I heard a youngster asking his mother if she could she buy him a trombone because “I want to play jazz like that!” This speaks a thousand words! Because jazz isn’t inert, it’s exuberant, dynamic as well as soulful.
Jeff Matthews May I add to the discussion by first stating that a style is a style. New Orleans, traditional jazz is a style and different sound hewed out of the western scale by years of experience and love. Although originally from New Orleans, it was developed and embraced by people around the world. It is still extremely popular wherever it is played. But since the demise of Louis Armstrong as Ambassador for jazz and in the UK, the finish of Kenny Ball’s appearance on TV in the Morecambe and Wise show, traditional jazz has had no profile. You can have the best product in the world but if nobody knows about it….!
There are many forms of trad played up and down the UK to enthusiastic fans but it is almost a forgotten style of music because of the deliberate culling of music in other forms, apart from ‘pop’ music which is played ‘for the many’ for the financial benefits of the few. The wonderful interpretation of traditional jazz by Brian Carrick is just as valid as any other even if it’s band members and fans are in the senior part of their lives. Age is not the issue nor is whether a sax is acceptable. Most bands are well past that point. Let’s just play the music.
But, what is true and to me is the null point of all of this is promotion. Not a changing of the music to accommodate ‘pop’ culture, but a promotion of the best elements of the music to the general public which consists of people of all shapes, sizes, colours, education and age. We need some of the ‘names’ in trad jazz to step forward and promote New Orleans/Traditional/Dixieland/Chicago style jazz. Call it what you may. A new set of ‘Ambassadors for the Tradition’. Where are you guys?
All that ‘ageing audience’ stuff will take care of itself if the music is brought back into the public eye. Get some good looking musicians ready who play the music well – not bending it to rock ‘n roll – but playing what we already have with heart and conviction. Then get those ‘names’ involved. Where are you Jools Holland? Where are you Jamie Cullum? Stop mis-educating people about what real jazz is and stick to some time honoured definitions.
It’s time for us jazzers to start influencing our ‘world’ and look for ways to insist that we have a cultural right to play and ‘broadcast’ our musical art. Time to make the general public aware of our music and embrace it once more. The rest will follow. And there will be bands in the Ken Colyer mode as well as those who will play jazz in a more R&B way. But people must hear it and have a choice. By the way, there are already enough ‘knock out’ musicians in the UK, young and old who already hold the professional stage. Let’s get THEM heard on jazz shows and on TV shows. Good presentation, good arrangements, good foot stomping tunes, that infectious NO rhythm. We did it in the recent past. Why not now!
Peter Mark Butler Excellent, Jeff! A couple of your lines are worth emphasising: “We need some of the ‘names’ to step forward and promote New Orleans/traditional/Dixieland/Chicago style jazz. Call it what you may. A new set of ‘Ambassadors for the Tradition’. Where are you guys?”
BETTER YET: HERE’S A CHALLENGE FOR STAR BAND LEADERS, FOR ACKER BILK, CHRIS BARBER, TERRY LIGHFOOT AND SAMMY RIMINGTON. FOR THE SAKE OF NEW ORLEANS JAZZ, TO GIVE IT THE MASSIVE REVIVAL IT NEEDS AND ENSURE IT’S FUTURE, HOW ABOUT SHARING YOUR ENDURING FAME WITH THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF MUSICIANS? BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME GREAT YOUNG BANDS READY FOR THE FULL BLAZE OF THE SPOTLIGHTS. SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO SHARE YOUR STAGES WITH THEM, TO BUILD ON THE PUBLICITY THIS WOULD ATTRACT AND SO LAUNCH A JAZZ REVIVAL TO DEFY ANY BBC CLAIMS THAT “JAZZ IS DEAD”. AND PLEASE REMEMBER TIME IS NOT ON OUR SIDE, SADLY KENNY BALL PASSED AWAY THE VERY DAY OF POSTING THIS DEBATE – 23RD MARCH, 2013.
Initiator
I just thought “Maybe us youngsters should start a jazz festival promoting younger bands?” But then that bypasses why I love playing the music so much – I get to share a stage, gain knowledge and listen to fantastic tales of ‘being on the road’ with guys who’ve been there and done it. Must be a happy medium? Simon
Peter Mark Butler Excellent thought and I take your point. So why not a festival of younger bands with a couple of older bands in guest slots? Worth some serious thought!
DixieMix Jazzband Possibly. That in essence is what I’ve tried to achieve with my band line up. Two stalwarts of The British jazz scene with four great younger guys (to carry their heavy items and dish out their tablets!!)
John Petters Simon, you raise an interesting idea. But you have hit the nail on the head. You gain knowledge and experience playing with older musos. I was in a similar position when I started playing. Everyone was older that I. I was lucky to find a few mentors. The other thing I considered a great privilege was to play with the few surviving veteran Americans, who taught me so much. I can remember being amazed at the gaps left in the playing of Wild Bill and Yank Lawson. There was an economy of notes. From Al Casey and Art Hodes, I got to appreciate laid back time. Records are great – and are the only option today – but that direct experience of working with these men was priceless. By the time I came on to the scene, few were left. They have all gone now.
Alyn Shipton Not quite all gone – Sir Charles Thompson will be 95 in March and he’s still playing in Japan with Yoshio Toyama among others.
DixieMix Jazzband John. I’m with you 100%. You only get the real experience from the guys who have done it. Two gems of wisdom that have stuck with me from my first experiences of traditional jazz both came in New Orleans as a 13 year old boy! I was lucky (through a helpful introduction from Pat Halcox) to spend a lot of time with the excellent trumpeter Wendell Brunious – who had covered for Pat during his illness. Wendell gave me some great advice as I was having a lesson with him. Blowing my trumpet into the ground (trying to look cool!). He lifted my horn and pointed it out straight and said… “you’re 13…. you have the cute factor! You can play what you like and everyone will think you’re cute cos you’re young, but boy, when you start to grow stubble you better be able to blow that horn cos you won’t have that on your side!” And if I hadn’t recovered from that, the following night we were at Preservation Hall and sat with the band on the side of the stage. The trombone play was Waldon ‘Frog’ Joseph he was well in to his 80’s and pretty frail. He turned to me as he saw me singing along and said “do you play?” As an enthusiastic 13 year old I replied “Yes… Yes. I play the trumpet!” “No you don’t!” he barked…… “you learn the trumpet! I’ve been playing 76 years and I’m still learning!!”
Super advice which I still remember and thats what I love about the music.
Many of my friends think I’m a little strange that I spend all my time hanging about with guys in their 70’s and 80’s but I count those musicians as far more genuine friends!
Jeff Matthews What a wise viewpoint Simon has. The traditional jazz scene has not died even though it is not the youth filled music of the 50’s and 60’s. It has matured. It is a community of young and old giving their talents to the music. Both learning and leaning on each other. In this way it is not separatist as the rest of the UK has become. Traditional jazz is not and in its pure form, was never ageist. The idea of having a young festival plus older well established bands is a better suggestion than having either just old bands or just young bands. As Jim Macintosh said, if I understood him correctly, we spend too much time analysing and becoming angst ridden about all of this and not enough time promoting and playing this great and happy music. Please stop putting the music into age groups – it’s is for everyone! Simon – you have it right.
John Petters Simon, you are indeed lucky. The advice you were given was sound. My friends thought I was strange. They were all into Hendrix etc and I was listening to hot jazz. I agree with Frog Joseph’s comment. First class. Keep listening.
DixieMix Jazzband Here’s an example of what we are all up against. This week I received an email from The Norfolk and Norwich Festival. Over the last 4 years we have done a total of 18 gigs for them on a cruiser on the Norfolk Broads. Every gig has in the past sold out (120 tickets).
This year the festival is dropping the jazz cruise!! They are Arts Council funded and not interested in helping local bands or popular acts. It’s such a shame for the area that they would rather bring in some chap on Mongolian Nostril flute to play to an audience of 5 than provide top class entertainment to full crowds!
Louis Lince As big an audience as 5!!! I doubt it!
DixieMix Jazzband I’m learning the nose flute ready for next year!!!
Steven Coombe If they are always sold out why not just run the gig yourself?
DixieMix Jazzband We are looking into it Steven. To run it at the same time. The only slight issue is that the Festival had an enormous advertising hit to over 100,000 with brochures. We cannot replicate that. But people I’m sure will be looking for the jazz boat around that time.
Peter Mark Butler 100,000 brochures and only one jazz boat, might well be pretty good odds. After all, the boat might capsize if you poached more than 120 fans!
DixieMix Jazzband We used to do two or three sailings each saturday throughout the festival.
John Petters Jeff, I think it is important to analyse the music we play. I did a residency in Zurich in the 80s. I always take music with me. Trevor Whiting, who you will know is an excellent player, did the same. It was the right stuff. Oliver, Armstrong, Basie Ellington, Goodman, etc. One of our band members brought music with him too – but it was a tape of his own recordings – and it showed in his playing!
Jeff Matthews John, totally agree on this. That is positive and forward moving and craftsmanlike and professional. I think it is vital for musicians to understand the history and the lives and the craft of those pioneers who developed it from basic concepts. But that is professional analysis of the tools we use. It is not the same as trying to divide the music into age groups. I am watching the BBC 2011 Proms right now. Great music. Great musicians and singers. What is important to this discussion is that there is a wide age range amongst these artists. I never have heard of anyone saying that all classical/symphony music has to be played by one age group to be successful. It is great to see young and old musicians sitting together, as a ‘family’ playing to their utmost ability – together. All having fun. As music should be. And each one has done their due diligence on the work bench for sure.
John Petters Yes Jeff, of all music, jazz isn’t an age thing. Historically musicians have always had respect for older players. Louis always acknowledged Oliver. Gene Krupa always stated Zutty, Baby and Tubby Hall were his early influences. What happened with ‘some’ musicians over here and in Europe is that they only heard Ball, Barber and Bilk and were not interested in going back to the roots. It’s the same with kids who want to play Coltrane. They need to understand Bechet first. You don’t build a house without foundations and the foundations of jazz are in New Orleans and the blues & Africa.
Jeff Matthews I was once talking with a UK based organiser of a jazz instruction course for musicians and I asked him if they covered older jazz styles from the beginning. “Yes” he said emphatically, “we go all of the way back to Charlie Parker.
Jim McIntosh The happy medium may be for you to organise the festival, but for the older guys to foot the bill?
Jeff Matthews May I suggest a festival with young bands but hosting The Original Dixieland Jazz Band. Jimmy La Rocca runs his band out of New Orleans. He is the son of Nick of course. I met up with him at a festival and persuaded him to do a video interview with me. He is a sparkling ‘Southern Gentleman’, plays excellent trumpet in all styles and I think has important things to say about the beginnings of jazz. The video also contains concert footage. It was a freezing cold night, but the music was hot. See it at www.tradjazzonline.com. Warning! It is 1.5 hours long!!! Free to watch.
Peter Mark Butler Perhaps we should explore mileage in Jim’s suggestion above – ie “for the older guys to foot the bill”. Come to that, Jeff Matthews, Pete Lay and I touched on the feasibility of launching a New Orleans style Jazz Camp in the UK (see also under Debate N0 3 on Mentoring and Jazz Clubs). Any possibility of linking the two ideas? There may even be possibilities of seeking some kind of sponsorship for that? Over to you for your thoughts Jeff. And of course other Jazzers for their valid points.
DixieMix Jazzband It’s a good idea. I used to get a lot from workshops etc as a much younger player. We were obviously lucky in Norfolk that there was a strong youth jazz teaching scene. Mainly thanks to private individuals rather than any government funded schemes. Although again the bulk of the workshops were more mainstream based so yes there could be room for one exploring earlier jazz forms.
Of course the most valuable learning happens on stage and I was always so grateful to be allowed to sit in with bands for a tune or two. (again a beautiful thing about jazz – the internationally known standard repertoire!)
Jeff Matthews I was inspired by a trip to New Orleans last June when I was offered support by the organisers of their Course dealing with early jazz. I thought we could pursue the idea here. Banu Gibson and her team loved the idea of developing New Orleans jazz ideas over here. Mix the skills levels up and put on shows each evening to develop the stagecraft. I wrote an article in Just Jazz magazine about the idea but typically received no feedback. There is interest out there. We just need to ‘cook it up a bit’.
Peter Mark Butler I want to work with Just Jazz as closely as possible and I most certainly defer to their longstanding authoritative voice. But the internet offers more immediacy for responses to such ideas, so I’m sure we would appreciate as much input as possible on these issues and possibilities. In turn it might be possible to include articles in Just Jazz to help drive things forward. Simon, you and DixieMix Jazzband have certainly stirred things up with this exchange on Jazzers. One of the reasons I launched the Jazzers Group! Let’s press on.
DixieMix Jazzband I have no intention of ‘stirring’ things up just merely enjoying the opportunity to share ideas and thoughts with you all. I guess we are all very passionate about our music which is why we should be sharing it with audiences and keeping it alive!
John Petters On a cautionary note, if you are thinking of bringing non EU bands over, there are all sorts of hurdles. I’m not up on the current regs, but such things as withholding tax, work permits, travel and accommodation costs etc would be an issue. I had to do all this when I brought Wild Bill and Art Hodes over in the 80s and it was a nightmare!
Peter Mark Butler MY CONCLUSION: YES, ITS GOOD TO REMEMBER THE FORMER GLORIES OF PAST MASTERS AND TO LEARN FROM AND REVEL IN THEIR MUSIC, BUT HAVE WE THE SPIRIT AND DYNAMISM TO RECAPTURE THAT PAST GLORY IN A MOVE FOR A MASSIVE JAZZ REVIVAL INVOLVING NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK AS WELL AS ESTABLISHED BANDS?
FOR INSTANCE, EVEN WITH TOP BANDS AND EMERGING STARS BACK AT THE 100 CLUB? TAKE A LOOK AT THIS, CAN WE RECAPTURE THOSE TIMES:
Johnny Parker Ken Colyer Careless Love www.youtube.com Personnel: Ken Colyer [trumpet] Graham Stewart [trombone] Alan Cooper [clarinet] Johnny Parker [piano] Jim Bray [bass] Dave Evans [drums]
Initiator
I wrote an article in ‘Just Jazz’ magazine last year about a trip I took to New Orleans. Part of the reason for the trip was to check out the traditional New Orleans jazz course organised by Banu Gibson and her team. They were very interested in helping me/us in the UK put on a similar course. We are not talking about teaching the basics. We are talking about master classes, etc. Many of the musicians attending the course were already well known Pro’s and semi Pro’s. The lecturers were all well known professionals. It was exhilarating!
I had no interest shown in the idea as a result of that article from musicians here in the UK…..Until just recently when two well known UK traditional jazz musicians were interested in exploring the idea further. Does anyone else on Jazzers want to discuss this further? Post and also contact me on: southsoundsjazz@aol.com
Peter Mark Butler You know I am, Jeff! Ties in with the other aspects we’ve been discussing and also other debates on Jazzers.
Nita Fairley Hemeter Excellent Jeff, great news, run with it.. xo Nita
Peter Mark Butler Support from New Orleans there, Jeff. As Nita says, let’s run with it!
Jeff Matthews Hi Nita. What a great job you did on that course. It also raises the profile of this music and from what I saw, promoted New Orleans jazz, which is far from dead. It struggles at times to get the attention it deserves, but is resilient and will win in the end. Maybe we should try and find a successful UK festival to attach ‘master classes’ in New Orleans jazz to. Could be fun!
Jeff Matthews Ok, we have 200 plus jazzers on this list. Lets hear your thoughts even if you think it is a stupid idea, won’t work or isn’t necessary. Maybe you would like to contribute your services or even mentor a musician. Lets discuss it or lay it to rest.
Louis Lince I’m up for mentoring
Peter Mark Butler Great Louis! That’s one mentor within minutes, Jeff! There are now over 220 Jazzers on the group, more than I had anticipated at this stage when I launched it – and I haven’t even attempted a “recruiting campaign” yet.
Jeff Matthews Fantastic Louis. What a great opportunity for new and improving banjo players to get top advice from you. Thank you sir.
DixieMix Jazzband I’d love to attend. Obviously it’s all dependent on gigs allowing me the time. If we’re to go ahead maybe early in the new year. From experience always a quiet time for gigs??
Jeff Matthews Sounds good to me. I think a list of mentors for a range of instruments would be a good start. Louis is The first. How about you Simon. Trumpet mentor? I found a reference in an old New Orleans book somewhere which talked about how this music was passed on in the early days. It was passed down from musician to musician. It was done by mentorship – as well as tuition.
DixieMix Jazzband In all honesty I still want to learn!! I would probably struggle as a mentor as I don’t really read music or chords. I have always played by ear. It’s something I’m working on.
Jeff Matthews I feel a mentor needs a love for the music, enough knowledge of the history of the music to understand it and a desire to encourage and help someone progress. A mentor is not a teacher of musical theory. But is a helping hand. A reference point along the way. Answers questions: “How do I get that sound/play that tune/which strings or reeds do you recommend”. I use my ears and I also read music/arrangements to some degree. Often I wish I could do what you do and play entirely by ear without reference to any dots. That is something I am working on too. Wouldn’t it be great to form a knowledge base of experts within this music who will share there expertise.
Peter Mark Butler AS MODERATOR OF JAZZERS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MUCH MORE INVOLVEMENT IN THIS DEBATE ALONG WITH SUGGESTIONS FOR LAUNCHING A MENTORING PROGRAMME AND EVEN JAZZ CAMPS IN THE UK.
Initiated by:
John Petters who posted:
GNSH – Goodnight Sweetheart – Internatioabnal Swing Dance Camp – Weekend, UK www.gnsh.co.uk
Peter Mark Butler So how about this Clare Gray and Jeff Matthews? Time we started weaving a little of this kind of magic in our campaign for a New Orleans jazz revival? Ties in with Jazz Camps and festivals for younger bands covered in Debates 1,2 & 3.
Clare Gray This is a dance class that we belong to, so I can say that they are enthusiastic about jazz and traditional music – but they sometimes struggle I believe to get the bands to play the right stuff for dances. Not so much the style of music, more the discipline to really watch their audiences and keep them on the floor. There’s a tendency to go off into noodling instrumentals, forgetting that dancers need a bit of a structure to the length and delivery of a number. All that said, there’s loads of scope for bands and dance clubs to get together. Is there money out there though to pay for larger bands?
Jeff Matthews I play traditional jazz and also get hired to play gigs with a 9 piece dance band. I keep suggesting that the dance band become more swing orientated. There is an audience for it already. I see a great chance of a ‘Revival’ with ‘swing/jazz’ similar to that which happened in the 50’s & 60’s with traditional jazz. There are already young bands playing this stuff along with traditional jazz tunes at some very classy venues and social events in the UK and Europe. They are not putting on a sit down concert but are part of a party atmosphere where people dress in the theme and dance – fun! Perhaps traditional bands could start to add this swing style to their existing repertoire. As I understand it, the original New Orleans bands played for dances and street parties, not concerts. Straight forward tunes and solos required. Something with a definite melody and rhythm which dancers can work with. Should we be discussing this further on this forum and adding suggested tune lists?
DixieMix Jazzband Norwich has a very strong swing dance scene. The challenge is getting those dance groups to move from recorded music to live music. With the recorded there are obviously smaller overheads. We are starting to get a good dance following with the band but unfortunately not all venues we perform have the space ! Glad you had a good night, John.
John Petters Here’s a few observations. Clare has it right and she is speaking from a dancer’s standpoint. Bands have to play danceable tempi. The rhythm is paramount. Polite doesn’t work. Think Carnegie hall, 1938. There is another possible problem. Younger audiences are used to having music that has been dumbed down by the media. The tunes (where there are any) tend to be simple. It may mean that a traditional jazz front line with polyphony may sound a jumbled mess to ears that have not been accustomed to hearing three separate melodic lines. This will not apply to everybody, of course, and it risks sounding condescending, which I hope it doesn’t – but riff tunes, like Flyin’ Home, Seven Come Eleven etc – are shorter numbers than you would play at a jazz club – about 3 – 4 minutes. We didn’t achieve this on Friday in every case – but watch the dancers. Presentation is another key area. Much traditional jazz I hear is like watching paint dry. It is not good enough just to play well – you have to go out and entertain. Pete Allen does this very well, as do the Jive Aces. Simon’s point about small venues and recorded music is valid. It will come to bands doing self promotions in conjunction with dance clubs.
Jeff Matthews Thank you. Interesting and important points. I am interested in more suggestions about tunes that work in the swing dance style and the tempos. I have done dance band work and even now do work with a quartet which plays anything from the Gay Gordons to The Conga. I have introduced a few swing era tunes too for ‘social’, less formal dancing. What is paramount is the correct tempo and plainly stated melody lines. Where the improvisation takes place it must be in tempo and understandable by a largely none jazz audience. The drummer is the key and should understand the need for the rhythm to be correct. But it can be done by us jazzers too. Those bands who still have a strong traditional following may not need to worry about it but it is the struggling bands and the bands who will be sustaining and continuing this music into the future for whom it is perhaps worth considering.
DixieMix Jazzband I’m with you John. Entertainment is the key to the younger audience. They have been continually fed music with visual accompaniment (much of the time the music even seems to take second place in that formula!!). They want to see something happening on stage. A connection. I’m not saying we shouldn’t deliver a first class musical performance either but some bands are guilty of not even breaking a smile let alone talking to the audience in a way they can feel part of the night. Sadly I don’t think many younger (commercial) audiences would care who wrote the tune and the history behind it.
A band needs to be versatile. There are times to go all out as a ‘function type’ band and there are occasions when we have a jazz audience who want to listen and enjoy some interesting takes behind each tune.
Jeff Matthews Agree. Entertainment is the key. It has to be fun for the audience. It also has to be danceable.
Peter Mark Butler This Swing Dance Debate is one of several debates recently initiated on Jazzers. It ties in with my aim in launching the Jazzers Group – to revitalise the roots of jazz and in particular traditional (or should that be original New Orleans jazz?). Some may question it, but Swing Dance along with LindyHop can be one of the ways of attracting a new generation back to jazz.
Clare Gray This is all great stuff – very encouraging for the dancers – some of whom are younger and are not used to interacting with live music. Performance is all – otherwise they’d just revert to using recorded material. I have been to events with both and although we get a good dance and have a great time in either case, there is certainly more of a buzz when a live band is doing its thing and responding to the audience – recognising when the dance floor needs filling, or slowing down to give the dancers a breather when it’s needed – then picking it back up again. Its a joy to watch. Keep going all you jazzers we need you! PS – if anyone is going ‘out to play’ and wants a singer to tag along you know where to find one!
Jeff Matthews Clare : What dances do you do at the swing events? Do you recognise the tune names/tempos used? There are many bands in the USA playing this style. Some also include hot traditional jazz very successfully. Others like the Jonathan Stout bands are mostly pure swing style dance bands it seems.
Peter Mark Butler I’ll just add a small point at this stage and that’s to vouch for Clare as a jazz singer – oh, and as a dancer! (By the way, this reminds of the Key Facts Bulletin of old, Clare. Perhaps we should introduce the title “Key Facts for a Jazz Revival”.)
Clare Gray Thank you Mr Butler – always a gent!
All sorts thrown into the mix – we’ve been doing classes to quite traddy stuff lately, 1920s – 30s, Charleston style too – but the public events tend to knock out the standards and most people learn the names because they download the music to practice to or ask around (or it’s obvious from the words if there’s any singing sometimes of course!). Just off to class now so I’ll pay attention to the numbers in the next day or so – and also supply a list of some of the numbers that seem to come up regularly if that’s helpful to any of you? Let me know. As to tempi recognition, I suspect most of us aren’t too on top of that – just as long as we can work our 8-count or 6-count steps into it. The odd foxtrot slips in for those events that are more 40’s-focused – a lot of those around as you’ll know. Dancing slippers on now, more later if wanted?
Peter Mark Butler Yes, more later please, Clare. But enough of this “Mr Butler” although I like the “always a gent” bit!
Jeff Matthews Clare, yes more please. Cheers.
Initiator:
Peter Mark Butler
This Debate is a natural follow on to Debate Nos 1-4 because it demonstrates that the goals they present could be achieved in the UK if only we would be self-effacing enough to learn from our European Jazz Cousins. After all, was not “European Traditional Jazz” – which continue to thrive – a very successful offshoot from “British Traditional Jazz” introduced to our shores from New Orleans? Indeed, many of our top musicians have fled these shores to Germany, Holland and Sweden.
Peter Mark Butler In the wake of the Jazz&Jazz analysis of the BBC programme “Jazz is Dead”, Trevor Stent has thrown out this challenge to jazz in the UK. Any jazz luminaries out there willing to take up the challenge?
Encouraging Signs for Jazz in Europe, So Why Not in the UK? www.jazzandjazz.com
Jeff Lewis Thank you Trevor for having the b@££s to stand up and say what quite a few of us have thought for a long time.
Kay Leppard Peter: I think the Colyer knockers have been at it so long that some of his fellow musicians and fans who also have much wider tastes but are never given any credit for it by those who are happy to generalise at every opportunity, are bored by it all and I am sure they would be the last ones to want to hear what the Ken Colyer Trust – with limited means – tried to do for young musicians.
Peter Mark Butler I sympathise with that, Kay, and have encountered it myself. I attended a couple of the Trust’s meetings at Hemsby and remember reports on the educational endeavours. At least back then they were striving for some kind of progress. My point now is that if Brittany and Spain are making such progress, is there no one who can come forward in the UK to strive to emulate them.
Peter Mark Butler Pete Lay (Editor of Just Jazz) posted the following comment on my Jazz&Jazz article (above) and I felt it should be repeated here:
“Who are the jazz luminaries who are likely to step forward to the challenge? Probably only those who still believe jazz started with Charlie Parker or even John Coltrane. Music colleges are to blame. Their courses don’t base their instruction on anything pre-1940, except lip service to Louis Armstrong. Similarly, Johnny Boston, James Evans, Adrian Cox are playing our music despite everything else, certainly not helped by their peers. [More recently, Pete Lay has written: “I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”]
He continued, “I have just witnessed this past weekend a band from Enkhuizen, The Revivalists, which has Johnny Boston on clarinet, tenor sax, and vocals. What exuberance from five youngish lads (if you want to include the drummer’s dad on string bass). Here was spirit personified, all played extremely well, and it was our music!!!
“Sorry, but us old farts will have to fade away in this country before the young musician decides it is time to revel in the music of Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Bunk Johnson, George Lewis etc, but please not another bunch of Colyer copyists – there was only one Ken Colyer, and as Percy Humphrey said of him: “he knows”.
DixieMix Jazzband Trust me, there are a lot of great younger musicians out there who have not come out of the university “mainstream” mould and who have in fact come to traditional jazz through old fashioned gigging apprenticeships. I was massively influenced by Pat Halcox and it was guys like him who took time to help me and encourage me.
There are a few brilliant young trad bands I know of but the biggest problem I face is that its nearly impossible to get on the festival circuit because (a) there are less festivals due to audiences dwindling and (b) they are very much a closed shop with the same bands and often the same musicians rotating to make different line ups at the festivals.
Getting the break seems near impossible. Maybe down to the organisers? I appreciate bands don’t want to give up their slot to someone else but until younger bands become part of the circuit the younger audiences are going to stay away. Something needs to be done to keep traditional jazz alive in this country.
Simon
Peter Mark Butler ITS WORTH REPEATING SIMON’S STATEMENT: “UNTIL YOUNGER BANDS BECOME PART OF THE CIRCUIT THE YOUNGER AUDIENCES ARE GOING TO STAY AWAY.” THERE ARE SOME OUTSTANDING YOUNGSTERS OUT THERE BUT THEY ARE BY FAR OUTNUMBERED BY THE “OLD RELIABLES”. TIME TO GIVE THE EMERGING BANDS A BOOST FOR THE SAKE OF JAZZ. INDEED, TIME TO START YOUNGER STILL AND ASPIRE TO THE EUROPEAN EXAMPLE – JAZZ IN SCHOOLS!
Initiator: Ian Bateman:
I’m quite amused to read some of the threads on Jazzers about how we can keep jazz club promoters and punters happy. I think it’s really a no-win situation, every club is different.
After years on the concert circuit with Messrs Lightfoot and Bilk I’ve re-visited some of the jazz clubs to launch my own band and spread the word. The reactions have been poles apart between the various clubs we have played at.
We’ve had jazz club gigs where the band has been very enthusiastically received, we’ve sold loads of CDs and we’ve been asked back. On the other hand we’ve had gigs where we’ve had a very low-key reception, sold no CDs and we don’t really want to go back!
The only way forward for bands is not to compromise. If the members of a jazz club do not like your music, there is always a club where they will. Go where you are appreciated, it is a waste of time trying to convert people who will not be swayed.
We have just had a very successful concert at Warwick School. 46 Music pupils were all eager to learn jazz music and we gave them a workshop (on a Saturday) at which they all took part with a refreshing eagerness. They then turned up at our evening concert with their friends/parents and filled the theatre. Everybody won and went home happy. The youngsters out there can dig our music and we didn’t have to grow our hair long to get them interested. Jazz clubs should encourage younger people into their fold, it’s for the good of all of us.
Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly Ian – but as long as “jazz clubs” are the domain of the old, half witted, stick-in-the-mud old farts that they are, then we’re never going to get the youngsters in. Schools such as you just describe are certainly one of the ways forward. We used to do a posh school near Ipswich (the headmaster had previously been head at Shrewsbury School, where we also used to play) and it was great… Its these shitty old school jazz clubs that I have a gripe about.
Louis Lince What is it about the “Jazz Club” scene in the UK that makes one yearn to play in Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia? Could it be that over there all ages attend and the bands are treated like human beings. Having said that I don’t write off all clubs here.
Jeff Lewis Unlike most of the rest of Europe, GB has become massively hijacked by a hideous caricature of US style marketing ethos. I don’t mean in the obvious “Britain Has Talent” way, but more insidiously, via the subliminal inculcation of an “expected model”. This can lead to a “safety in numbers” “herd” mentality, (euphemistically called “peer pressure”) where you are either part of the pack, or its prey. Whereas this problem by no means affects everybody, it does affect enough to make large numbers wary of trying anything “different”. But there is a bit of a backlash/enlightenment starting in Ayr, Edinburgh, Twynholm. I’ve found the Liverpool pub scene to be superb, full of people who just enjoy good music played well.
Graham Smith A certain provincial jazz club took the opportunity to book the Bateman Brothers and it was only their 2nd billed performance methinks. The majority liked the band and marvelled at the quality of the musicianship. A few remarked on the volume, some acknowledged it was different. A small number said it wasn’t their cup of tea but isn’t that their prerogative even though I can’t understand why. At least we have the freedom in this country to have the right to like what we like and musicians have the freedom to perform the music they prefer.
A major concern for promoters is firstly engaging bands that audiences will attend and pay to see. New bands, unknown bands are an obvious risk. However, when a promoter engages quality bands and musicians on a regular basis they could well encourage a loyal and regular attendance based upon a reputation for doing so. I can think of one provincial club that has managed that and established a popular and well supported annual festival which includes in its programme different genres of jazz along with professional performers, including some lesser known youngsters, who have consequently been in demand at other clubs and festivals. Having an open mind as a promoter helps, as well as being a bit braver than the norm.
Bob Ironside Hunt – I wouldn’t put such clubs in the “old school” category! I could name such places, but don’t think it would be right…. and besides, I think we all know the type of clubs I’m referring to!
Moderator’s Note: DARE WE NAME THEM if we are to tackle the problem? Without fans there would be no clubs. The next Jazzers Debate is related to this and is entitled “Ageing Fans and Cherry Pickers”.
Initiator:
Trefor Williams
It’s an on-going problem, nationwide, keeping our jazz clubs and venues thriving. Wherever I go, I try to encourage punters to support the club, not just the band. This “cherry-picking” attitude can be a very negative and destructive way of thinking. We shouldn’t just support the tried and tested. Obviously, if someone doesn’t like the music of a certain band, they cannot be expected to attend, but if it’s a new band they haven’t heard before, they should have a bash at a new experience and make the scene a movement, not a monument.
I feel musicians themselves could help more than they do. So often you only see local musicians at the venues when they are booked to play. It would be good to see the guys showing up regularly and creating a social meeting place where punters can talk to musos and the chaps can talk music and gigs, while giving the performing band a kick. I’m sure this would create a vital atmosphere and boost trade, especially over the bar.
Come along, chaps. Get out there and dig in to the jazz scene. There are plenty of good sounds to inspire and encourage us to keep creating joyful noises.
Back in June, 2012, Lois Lloyd wrote to me at Jazz&Jazz: ““Hi Peter, I see you are noting our [jazz’s] history, a useful deed as we are losing so many wonderful musicians and at 64 David and I are often the youngest punters at the gig!” Lois is a member of the Plymouth Jazz Club.
Then, just the other day, I had this message from Ivan Halloran, an Australia broadcaster, in response to my Jazz&Jazz feature on Rich Bennett’s band at Hemsby. Ivan wanted to know more about Rich’s band and wrote: “My only interest is the promotion of Trad to a younger and younger audience in the hope that we can grow stronger, as we older jazzoes die off.”
Jazz Clubs across the UK are facing similar issues. Ageing fans and musicians and falling audience numbers to the extent that some clubs are closing their doors. And this despite clubs such as Leeds discovering ways of attracting younger fans.
Then just the other day Jeff Matthew’s emailed me: “Just arrived back from the Oswestry gig. Again New Faces! Around 45 payers. If all turned up at the same time we would be doing well. But hip replacements plus other issues and responsibilities mean that we have an increasing but revolving club audience. We tried an alternative band one month and it failed.”
I can identify a key issue from my own experience in helping Smiffy promote the Peartree Jazz Club in Welwyn Garden City. We recently featured Tad Newton’s Jazz Friends – one of the elite bands. Yet numbers were down. You would think fans would turn out in force to see a such a prestigious band at the club for the first time. So why do they cherry pick? Could it be that they’ve become stayed and just want to see familiar faces? I can name several other regular bands at the club which always attract a full house. This might prove that point.
So we need to see what we can do to counter this trend. If we don’t have different bands the club will become stale. And after a time the fans might well stay away because they become fed up with seeing the same bands over and over again! We mustn’t let this become a “no win”!
Yet younger fans would have enjoyed the Jazz Friends’ repertoire. So it gets right back to attracting younger bands, younger musician and younger fans to jazz.
But perhaps it’s not just that. Maybe it’s also about rebuilding club fan bases and memberships by seeking out fans lost to jazz because they don’t think there’s anywhere left to see live jazz in their areas.
The comments on Cherry Picking and Jazz Clubs streamed in:
Maggie Peplow We tried doing a Jazz Jive class for half an hour before the Waterworks started with the aim of encouraging a younger audience. This worked for a few weeks, but sadly most of them drifted off after a while. I think it’s something to do with the mindset of the young now, they want and get everything immediately and therefore they don’t really value what they have. Its the same with their music. I am sure most of us jazzers treasure our records, even our CDs, but the young keep their music in their phones – what will their memories consist of when they reach our age?
Bob Ironside Hunt As I said in the other post… its a lost cause, and a pointless exercise as far as provincial traditional jazz clubs are concerned. All very well Trefor, but its not that simple. For instance, after a 6.5 week tour, I’m sure Alison is not going to be best chuffed if I go out to a jazz club. Also, when I still lived in St Albans my nearest jazz club was the Pump House at Watford… last train back to St Albans at 9:30pm…. not much use really. Even if you do bother to go, you have to stand up at the bar or something for fear of taking one of the “regulars'” seats, and getting frowned at for being a “modern” player anyway!
Jeff Lewis I think we’ve all seen instances where the extreme conservatism prevalent on the trad scene particularly, has scared off new faces permanently.
Louis Lince like the Lindy Hoppers being scared off by the old guard.
Bob Ironside Hunt And as for attracting the youngsters? Don’t make me laugh. It’s never going to happen – not so long as these “clubs” are situated in crumbling British Legion clubs, mouldy village halls without a bar, or conversely in some characterless civic centre, more reminiscent of a school hall than anything else… The key to it is the media. The problem is jazz, especially vintage jazz, is not accessible to the younger folk… its not on the TV and hardly ever on the radio – and even if it was they wouldn’t tune in because of the perceived “old fogyness” about it. Sorry folks…. but the days are numbered….
Jeff Lewis I agree Bob. The days of “that” scene are numbered, and getting shorter for all the reasons discussed so far. I doubt the music will die per se, but it will go through a period of being included in other genres, before it stands fully in its own right again, as is happening with Electro Swing filtering though to Lindy Hopping etc. Much of the swing stuff is now entering pop culture, and we have to exploit this niche.
Al Swainger Fair points both. There’s definitely a lot of local musicians griping about not getting more work who don’t make the effort to support each other and ‘show face’ to help foster a local scene. At the same time – if you have been working a lot it’s not necessarily what you want to do on your day off – but it’s fair to suggest that we all make the effort where possible.
There’s maybe a difference between music presented at dedicated jazz clubs & free venues like pubs. Clubs can be intimidating because you have to pay to get in and then find yourself in an alien environment where there are perhaps unwritten rules of etiquette that can make you feel unwelcome. Pubs and the like are a blank canvas socially and, in my experience, in those environments punters of all ages tend to enjoy what’s put in front of them – so long as it’s delivered in an entertaining and sincere way. But – those gigs need to survive long enough for it to become a social norm – if no one turns up it’s not surprising that the landlord or whoever is promoting doesn’t persist for long if they aren’t ardent jazz fans. If even the musos don’t support each other how can we expect anyone else to? – the world doesn’t owe us a living.
Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly Al – and as time goes on, the number of potential landlords who may only have a passing interest in jazz will get less and less, and as the current “youngsters” take over the role of landlord such opportunities will cease…. Ian is right… somewhere like Baker Street in Swindon works! But I’m afraid these spots are very few and far between.
And as for the “jazz club” – forget it. Al got it right when he said: “Clubs can be intimidating because you have to pay to get in and then find yourself in an alien environment where there are perhaps unwritten rules of etiquette that can make you feel unwelcome”
Ian Bateman My word, Swindon is an exception to the rule! We have a trendy pub called Baker Street which is heaving with youngsters on Fridays and Saturdays. On Tuesdays they have jazz nights and albeit FOC they are quite well supported by people of all ages. The Bateman Bros have been in there as well as some very ‘modern’ (I hate that word) bands. The money isn’t great but much better than the London pubs and most of the musicians play there because they are appreciated. I’m with Bob, take these clubs to somewhere that is more conducive to attracting younger people, it works in Swindon (once the centre if jazz apathy) so it’s bound to work elsewhere!
Graham Smith Do I take it that you won’t be returning to a thriving and well supported Pershore Jazz Club then Bob?
Jeff Matthews I agree, musicians should support other bands and venues where possible. However, a few years ago I was booked as a dep and turned up at the gig only to see the far more experienced musician I was depping for enter the club and pick a table right next to me. It was very uncomfortable for many reasons. So, supportive and sensitive visits only please. May I take Bob’s point and acknowledge his greater understanding of the scene observed over a lot of years. But as the older fans and muso’s disappear off the end of the conveyor belt, a fresh generation of oldies will appear on the horizon who will have discovered this music from the vast amounts now on the Internet. The world is round and cycles repeat as in the revivalist times in the 50’s, etc.
Ian Bateman Bob, they were saying this in the 80’s. I’m with Jeff on this point, a new generation of oldies does indeed come around. I and the musicians in my band always make time to chat with the punters, they are all important to us because they are our customers effectively. I often wonder how it is that these new ‘oldies’ weren’t around when I got started in the early 80’s (and they were in their thirties), yet here they are – regular jazz club punters in the Autumn of their years. It will always be this way until the young generation come back – we’ve been waiting nearly 50 years…
Jeff Matthews Things have changed. Music has changed. The music which is heavily promoted has changed. Promotion by radio, tv and record companies is that which is unsophisticated and therefore can be sold and sold again for big money – for the pockets of the few. No jazz will ever be as popular as the top ten ‘fudge’. We now have 2 generations of young people brought up on it and living lives full of distractions. This is not post war Britain. Society has evolved and revolved and changed around us. BUT the music has survived because it carries in my mind a ‘code’ created by good composers who were ‘in line’ with the good honest people of their time. The music lifts people. Even the Blues are not depressing unlike pop culture ‘blues’ which tend to be miserable songs about failure. The music we play is special. Some people will recognise this and seek it out, on into the future. We just need to learn how to promote it well to those people who recognise its merits for what it is. Classic, trad, New Orleans, old jazz, are all labels to define style just like fillet, rump, porterhouse, steak. Different flavours. Some want peppercorn sauce and others want a ‘banjo sauce’. I think we agonise too much over all of this. It’s great music and a great ‘product’. We just need to adapt its marketing to a new 40+ generation. I think we keep looking at the hole and not the doughnut. I also have strong ideas about where the new musicians playing this music should come from and it is different to where most people think. Just my opinion at this time.
Bob Ironside Hunt Jeff – I agree entirely. Whereas there is an element of truth in the idea that there will always be a “new” older generation, the fact remains that we are not getting YOUNG people in… And what may have appeared as a put down to the jazz clubs on my part was really meant to be a criticism of the way in which jazz (of any kind) is presented to and perceived by the younger folk… and certain types of jazz club (not just “trad” or “new orleans” biased ones) do absolutely nothing to help this.
Jeff Matthews Yes, in total agreement. Young people have to be helped to see jazz of all styles as current and fun. I feel that to appreciate some forms of more modern jazz needs a more educated ear by the listener. Same with many forms of classical music. But Radio 3 and Classic FM can provide an ‘education’ if people are interested enough to tune them in. There is also a social acceptability to classical music. But now jazz has nothing similar and established in the uk culture. I myself sometimes get confused by being offered jazz on radio which sometimes would be better catalogued under another music style, however good it might be. Therefore the links in practical terms are venues and clubs as Bob said. But exactly how should they reach out to this younger audience
Ian Bateman I like it, we spend too much time looking at the hole and not the doughnut. That thought will stay with me forever.
Jeff Lewis It ain’t what you do, it’s the way that you do it…….. and who you do it to.
Bob Ironside Hunt Anyway – its academic…. in 10 or 15 years there won’t be any traditional jazz clubs anyway. All the punters will be dead, and the organisers… and the committee members…. AND most of the musicians.
Jeff Lewis I think that might be true of “Trad”, but it mustn’t be forgotten that “Trad” is an artificial music, easy listening and innocuous, which evolved to fill a hole in the British pop music scene between the end of Big Bands and the start of Rock & Roll. While it contains elements of New Orleans Jazz, Blues and 1920’s dance music, it is much more superficial than its component influences and by definition, must therefore occupy transient ground. There are well known historical parallels to this, most obviously, the need for the first mass interest “jazz” records to be cut of a fairly anodyne white band (ODJB), and more latterly the transmutation of rough and raw Punk into New Wave. There are loads of other examples, but these are the two most obvious. I think the future for Jazz is a lot more rosy than people give it credit for. Maybe I’m deluded, but time will tell.
Bob Ironside Hunt I agree… But I was thinking of the “traditional jazz club”, as you know, of course. The younger people involved in the “trad” scene today, such as Amy Roberts, Jamie Brownfield and so on will just continue to play, but it won’t be “trad” as such… (to be honest, they don’t do that now anyway) and it won’t be in pokey dives run by old farts…
Jeff Lewis In fact Bob. There’s half an argument to suggest that the colloquial tendency to call everything non-bebop “Trad” is having a suppressing effect on those of us trying to march into the future. I’ve always disliked the word for that reason, it’s just that “Traditonal Jazz” is just such a descriptive convenience……..
Bob Ironside Hunt Yes – and not to mention the other “tags” adopted by the various club-goers…. New Orleans… (bollocks – have they been there?) Chicago… Dixieland…. And that’s all just within the so-called “trad” bracket. Plus, when I said “traditional jazz club” perhaps I should have said “the tradional “jazz club” ” …. yeah?
Jeff Lewis Ellington played “Black folk music” of course.
Bob Ironside Hunt That’s bollocks too…!!!
Jeff Lewis Quite probably, but his words, not mine…..
Jeff Lewis True
Bob Ironside Hunt Somehow I don’t think the likes of “Blue Again” or “Memories of You” count as Black folk music…. he played loads of printed stock arrangements too you know…
Jeff Lewis I’m sure stock arrangements must have been his bread and butter work at his residencies. People enjoy the familiar, and he was paid to entertain and supply the band.
Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly…. so hardly Black folk music!
Jeff Lewis Meant that tongue in cheek. Maybe Ellington did too?
Bob Ironside Hunt Its easier – just get the printed arrangement, and doctor it a bit. Saved time. They all did it…. All the bands back then played stocks, but with their own twist on it…
Ian Bateman ‘Modern’. Another descriptive convenience. ‘I don’t like modern jazz’ is like saying ‘I don’t like America’ … which bit??
Bob Ironside Hunt Yes indeed…. they still call Parker and Dizzy “modern”… nonsense.
Andrew Fawcett you are right, Trefor. Punters go to see “names” at the expense of some young musicians who are often more interesting. And many local musicians only go to venues when they have gigs, and not to hear others. (why should others listen to them if they won’t….)
Bob Ironside Hunt Have you not read the above thread Andrew?
Ian Bateman Most jazz clubs cannot afford ‘names’, mind you, depends on who is regarded as a ‘name’. There are some great bands out there regarded as not worth the extra money to get them in and conversely some absolutely awful bands regarded as top names.
Andrew Fawcett Bob, I read Trefor’s first post, but not all the thread.
Bob Ironside Hunt Ok Andrew… We have rather qualified Trefor’s original posting since then!
Jeff Matthews Frankly guys, if I take some of the comments in this thread seriously I think we should all jump of a nearby bridge. But that will not solve the problems. It will open up a position for another musician though. Look, it’s not just trad or classic or whatever label you use. Lots of things are having a hard time. Even bingo!!! I am at the moment in a university town. Thousands of kids out clubbing. The clubs are promoting like mad to get the punters in. They are just about holding their own. But…they are trying to combat the down turn even in this trade. We or you need to do the same. Find new ideas. If you don’t like the jazz clubs, don’t accept bookings there. Plus, those “old farts” are at least loyal fans in the main who will pay the entrance money that pays the band. Remember, you will be an old fart very soon but will not want to be described as such and certainly won’t feel like one. Labels: all things have labels including tins of Beans to differentiate it from soup. Quite useful really. Who wants to go to a venue that just says “music” played by a band. £10 please. You want to know what style of music it is, I would think. People keep talking about attracting a younger audience. What age is that exactly? Get a bunch of 20 year olds in a club by giving free or cheap drinks plus you as the best jazz band in the land, and they won’t give a damn. It’s not their music! Promote to 40 year olds who want a night out to boogie on down or dress up in 20’s costume and they will pay a good price to hear you play. Just my spurious thoughts.
Jeff Lewis Complex picture.
Jeff Matthews Yes, a complex picture, but the UK is small enough to make changes that will make a difference. Plus we British are a resourceful bunch when pressured. We have great music, great bands and loads of experience and talent. So a person in an audience wants a banjo or doesn’t know what a sax is? So what! Smile, they are ignorant and you know it – but they did pay the entrance. Just play for the other 99% who love what we/you do. By the way, I like banjo’s and saxes. ‘The Joy of Sax’ – Mmmm…good book title?
Bob Ironside Hunt I AM an old fart already by the way.
Ivan Halloran I am an even older Old Fart! This music has had me enthralled for the past sixty years. My friends and myself work hard in many ways to encourage, not only young musos, but all young people to become involved in the promotion of the jazz genre. We have some good radio programs in this State, promoting 30s to 60s jazz in a predominately Country and Western Culture.
To date there have been well over 100 comments on Trefor’s post on supporting jazz clubs, the post on ageing fans and cherry pickers, Ian Bateman’s related post and the discussions re clarinet, sax and banjo – all related. I’m wondering how long to keep the forum open before I attempt a studied resume. My object is to encourage involvement in an analysis of what it’s going to take to ensure a future for jazz.
Jeff Matthews Peter, perhaps keep it open and summarise as we go along. There is a whole section of the ‘trade’ who might have a different viewpoint. Those are the classic jazz bands who never play pub and club gigs. They do corporate and private gigs. They might not think the situation is quite the same as their audience is different and not so age defined. It would be interesting to hear from them.
Peter Mark Butler So let’s get them onto Jazzers and involved in the debates. Members of the group are free to invite others to join Jazzers, including such “elite” musos and bands.
Jeff Matthews Actually there are also a number of young musicians in this music and it would be interesting to hear from them too.
Peter Mark Butler Several are already on Jazzers and could comment. Others can be invited to join by current members. The more we get on board the better the sounding board.
ANY MEMBER OF MY FACEBOOK JAZZERS GROUP IS WELCOME TO INVITE FELLOW BAND LEADERS, MUSICIANS , CLUBS AND FANS TO JOIN THE GROUP. I WOULD WELCOME AN INFLUX OF YOUNGER JAZZERS TO MAKE THEIR OPINIONS KNOWN, ESPECIALLY ON WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO SET ASIDE PETTY ISSUES AND FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE – A REVIVAL IN THE FORTUNES OF JAZZ.
Initiator:
John Petters
I listened to the second part of the Chris Barber documentary on Radio 2 a little while ago. Both episodes were interesting. I’ve since been listening to the CD ‘King of the Blues’ by Bunk. The contrast is stunning. As I said on the Ken Colyer group last night, I always found Chris’ band rhythmically weak – as was most British Trad of the 50s. The feel of real New Orleans Jazz was so different. Ken Colyer got closest to it in my view with the band containing Colin Bowden. Listening to the CD that accompanies Mike Pointon and Ray Smith’s book, ‘Goin’ Home’, this contrast is highlighted. Ken recorded with some New Orleans musicians while over there and then came back and did the sessions with the Barber band. The front-line is very good, but the rhythm section is like a dance band with a banjo.
Episode 2 dealt with Chris’s promotion of blues and gospel singers. It was great to hear Sister Rosetta Tharpe along with Brownie McGee etc, but there were some truly awful recordings with a rock rhythm that almost had me reaching for the off switch. Nevertheless, two shows which gave an insight into the Trad boom and Chris has to be admired for his success and longevity.
Jeff Matthews Hi John I listened to that 2nd part too. Fascinating. It made me re-examine my definitions of what ‘Trad’ is or was and what is defined in the UK as New Orleans jazz. What was the latter Alex Welsh band playing along with Kenny Ball and Acker by these definitions? In the USA ‘trad’ is applied differently to here in the UK. As I found last year when I visited New Orleans, their jazz music was always a lot wider in scope than just ‘Revivalist’ jazz. So the BBC interview begs the question. What was Chris Barber playing when not promoting blues and skiffle? And why was and is ‘Trad’ so denigrated here in the UK? I hope this gets the postings going. Opinions please.
Jim McIntosh A million flies can’t be wrong…
John Petters I think that Barber, Colyer and Bilk were trying to play ‘New Orleans Revival Jazz’ a la Bunk & George Lewis. Humph, Cy Laurie, Mike Daniels etc were trying to play classic jazz a la Morton, Oliver, Armstrong. Freddy Randall, Kenny Ball and Alex Welsh were playing Condonesque Dixieland or Chicago style. Kenny always had a Louis slant.
As to what Chris was doing when not promoting Blues and Skiffle, there were the many recordings from the 50s that sound typical British trad. He did some sessions with Americans which were much better rhythmically. As the programme revealed, he was interested in doing different things and his current big band is evidence of that. Why do I denigrate Brit trad? – because it has no depth rhythmically. Rhythm is the key to jazz. It was stated in the programme that Trad jazz begat Rock. Heaven help us all.
Jeff Matthews So who did it right and who is doing it right today?
Fred Burnett I’m glad I’m not a musician. I didn’t have to analyse it back in the late 50s or early 60s, I just had to decide if I liked it or not. I liked Colyer, Barber, Bilk, Ball, Charlesworth, Lightfoot, Wallis, Ashman, T7 & Ball. Wasn’t keen on Welsh, Lyttelton, Gillespie or Condon. Such was my ignorance I once wrote to Tony Davis (JazzFM North) listing my likes and dislikes and asked the question, “Does this mean I like New Orleans Jazz rather than Dixieland Jazz?”. His reply? You like British Trad!”
Jeff Matthews I like all the good bits! I never labeled what I heard as ‘Trad’ or ‘Dixieland’ or anything else. However, when I put a band together a few years ago I found that the word ‘Trad’ was still recognised by the general public. To them it was a simple term that set our kind of jazz apart from modern jazz. Not a term for purists and musicians who understand the finer details, but for ‘Joe and Jane’ in the street it was something they still understood in a positive way. Morton, Oliver, Bechet, would not have been recognised. Trad was and is. Perhaps we should reconsider the definitions and use them more in the way the Americans do? And probably in the way the general public still seem to do. A ‘catch all’ title.
John Petters Fred, musicians will always see things differently to listeners. It is like us both, as licensed radio amateurs, viewing things differently to short wave listeners. Because of my relatively young age, I did not have the encumbrance of having Trad as part of my youth. In 1963, I was 10 and the Beatles were happening. When I really got hooked at age 15, it was the real thing I heard and I found the British version in the main, lacking depth. There are some Trad musicians who only listen to British Trad and of course they are further removed from the real thing. From a point of a desire to keep improving, my source material needs to be authentic – and I am in a learning process which will continue as long as I am a performer. I know some musos who have stopped listening. They are the ones who tend to speak less, musically.
John Petters Jeff, I tend not to describe what I do as trad. I will say I play traditional jazz and further define it if need be. The labels are so confused these days anyway and a lot of what is called jazz, just isn’t.
Jeff Matthews John, totally agree. I missed the trad era too and was listening to small band names from the USA. I was around 13 when the Beatles came on the scene and largely swept ‘trad’ away. But later I did hear Acker, Kenny and some Barber and enjoyed the joy I heard – commercial or not.
John Petters Acker’s band was always the most interesting, especially with Ken Sims. Like the bands of Max Collie and Phil Mason later on, when Ron McKay left, their rhythm sections never recovered.
Jeff Matthews Here is a clip I have never seen before with Ron Mckay on drums. It’s when jazz was treated as fun and happy music and allowed into the cinema. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcaK_9Bzt18 Start of ‘Band Of Thieves’ – Acker Bilk
Kay Leppard I came to jazz in about 1960. At the end of the revival and in the middle of all the British ‘trad’ bands which – as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this site – has always been considered a derogatory word and I always say to the unconverted when they mention trad jazz that I like traditional jazz. I always define British trad as ‘play it loud and play it fast’ – not mutes and no light and shade. First time I heard Ken I knew it sounded different, but at that stage I didn’t know why. I liked very early Barber and early Acker. In those days people were either Colyer or Barber fans and never the twain shall mix! Colyer was my man for his ‘dirty’ playing and the ‘feeling’ in the music. Barber was too ‘clean’ and too ‘rehearsed’. Didn’t like Ball, Lightfoot and although I could appreciate Alex Welsh, it wasn’t what I was looking for. A few years later I discovered George, Bunk, etc. Can only take Condon and Wild Bill in short doses although I know I will be shot down by many – especially musicians, but I’m sorry, their music doesn’t move me. These are just the ramblings of a punter, without any musical training for what it’s worth. I very much regret that, spending so much time listening to Ken who lived about 1/2 a mile from where I live now, I missed out on some terrific British NO bands of the time – Mike Casimir’s, Barry Martyn’s, Dan Pawson’s etc, etc. I could say I had a very narrow early jazz upbringing, but I have tried to make up for that – especially by listening to and appreciating our current young musicians.
John Petters A very considered view, Kay. I have to say that I’ve not heard recordings of Dan Pawson or Mike Casamir, but I have heard some 60s recordings of Barry’s band with Cuff and Cap’n John Handy. If you’ve not heard this by wild Bill & Brunies, give it a listen.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-4yMei3Wc : THAT’S A PLENTY by Wild Bill Davison on Commodore 12″ 78 rpm record
Jeff Matthews Well, very interesting comments from Kay. As a musician, a lowly one perhaps, I enjoy listening but especially playing everything from old New Orleans through the various styles and in various band sizes and I always find something that fills me with joy. It isn’t about technique, although I admire that too. It’s about honesty in and toward the music. It’s also about personal preference and what resonates with each of us. That is the richness of music.
Fred Burnett About the same time I asked the question of Tony, Jazz FM, I asked a question on the Dixieland Jazz Mailing List, DJML, mainly subscribed to by musicians, “What’s the difference between New Orleans and Dixieland jazz?”. I think I started World War lll.
Peter Mark Butler Pete Lay (Editor of Just Jazz) posted the following comment on my Jazz&Jazz article which I felt should be repeated here: “Who are the jazz luminaries who are likely to step forward to the challenge. Probably only those who still believe jazz started with Charlie Parker or even John Coltrane. Music colleges are to blame. Their courses don’t base their instruction on anything pre-1940, except lip service to Louis Armstrong. Similarly, Johnny Boston, James Evans, Adrian Cox are playing our music despite everything else, certainly not helped by their peers.
“I have just witnessed this past weekend a band from Enkhuizen, The Revivalists, which has Jonny Boston on clarinet, tenor sax, and vocals. What exuberance from five youngish lads (if you want to include the drummer’s dad on string bass). Here was spirit personified, all played extremely well, and it was our music!!!
“Sorry, but us old farts will have to fade away in this country before the young musician decides it is time to revel in the music of Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Bunk Johnson, George Lewis etc, but please not another bunch of Colyer copyists – there was only one Ken Colyer, and as Percy Humphrey said of him: “he knows”.
Jonny Boston Thanks for the compliments. It was a great weekend, despite the weather. We all enjoyed ourselves.
Kay Leppard Have now listened to the Wild Bill/Brunies, John and very much enjoyed it. Perhaps I should get out more in that direction.
Kay Leppard Fred: To confuse it all, New Orleans jazz is often called dixieland in the States!?!
John Petters Glad you enjoyed Bill, Kay. There are a lot of good tracks with Bechet on Blue Note, mostly with Art Hodes, who would not have been out of place in a Colyer rhythm section. Art recorded with Baby Dodds and many other New Orleans legends.
Alyn Shipton Pete Lay is, if I may say so, wrong about music colleges. I have been teaching jazz history at the Royal Academy along with Keith Nichols for years and we give all our students a thorough grounding in jazz from the very dawn of the 20th century. I also teach the jazz history course at City University and among my students’ work this term is a brilliant dissertation on Nat Gonella. Which as it’s written by a guitar student whose playing embraces Pat Metheny, seems to me a good thing. Keith’s big band at the RAM has been playing early Ellington charts, and last year the excellent Tom Walsh played the Eldridge role in a series of concert pieces. Keith and I also did a concert of Jelly Roll music at the RAM (broadcast in the 2010 London Jazz Festival) which was fairly roundly criticised by many of the “old farts” mentioned above. Seems to me that to get a programme of Jelly’s music on the BBC was not a bad thing, but apparently it was. You can hear highlights here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gqqgl BBC Radio 3 – Discovering Music, Jelly Roll Morton, Jelly Roll Morton
Jim McIntosh I play banjo
Peter Mark Butler Whilst I appreciate your points and applaud the work you are doing to promote jazz from its very dawn, Alyn, there is a huge difference between the Royal Academy and City University and the schools in Brittany and Spain referred to in Trefor Stent’s post focussing on their achievements and challenging “Why not in the UK?” Such an approach is distinctly lacking amongst similar lower age groups in British schools. Take a look at: https://www.jazzandjazz.com/?p=3536 Encouraging Signs for Jazz in Europe, So Why Not in the UK?
But I owe it to Pete Lay to repeat a paragraph from his editorial in the March, 2013, issue of Just Jazz: “I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”
MY CONCLUSION: TIME TO RECOGNISE THAT UK TRADITIONAL JAZZ IS AN OCEAN APART FROM THE ROOTS OF NEW ORLEANS JAZZ.
