EXAMINING FUTURE PROSPECTS

Jazzers’ Debate No 3

Mentoring and Jazz Clubs

Initiator

Jeff Matthews

I wrote an article in ‘Just Jazz’ magazine last year about a trip I took to New Orleans. Part of the reason for the trip was to check out the traditional New Orleans jazz course organised by Banu Gibson and her team. They were very interested in helping me/us in the UK put on a similar course. We are not talking about teaching the basics. We are talking about master classes, etc. Many of the musicians attending the course were already well known Pro’s and semi Pro’s. The lecturers were all well known professionals. It was exhilarating!

I had no interest shown in the idea as a result of that article from musicians here in the UK…..Until just recently when two well known UK traditional jazz musicians were interested in exploring the idea further. Does anyone else on Jazzers want to discuss this further? Post and also contact me on: [email protected]

Peter Mark Butler You know I am, Jeff! Ties in with the other aspects we’ve been discussing and also other debates on Jazzers.

Nita Fairley Hemeter Excellent Jeff, great news, run with it.. xo Nita

Peter Mark Butler Support from New Orleans there, Jeff. As Nita says, let’s run with it!

Jeff Matthews Hi Nita. What a great job you did on that course. It also raises the profile of this music and from what I saw, promoted New Orleans jazz, which is far from dead. It struggles at times to get the attention it deserves, but is resilient and will win in the end. Maybe we should try and find a successful UK festival to attach ‘master classes’ in New Orleans jazz to. Could be fun!

Jeff Matthews Ok, we have 200 plus jazzers on this list. Lets hear your thoughts even if you think it is a stupid idea, won’t work or isn’t necessary. Maybe you would like to contribute your services or even mentor a musician. Lets discuss it or lay it to rest.

Louis Lince I’m up for mentoring

Peter Mark Butler Great Louis! That’s one mentor within minutes, Jeff! There are now over 220 Jazzers on the group, more than I had anticipated at this stage when I launched it – and I haven’t even attempted a “recruiting campaign” yet.

Jeff Matthews Fantastic Louis. What a great opportunity for new and improving banjo players to get top advice from you. Thank you sir.

DixieMix Jazzband I’d love to attend. Obviously it’s all dependent on gigs allowing me the time. If we’re to go ahead maybe early in the new year. From experience always a quiet time for gigs??

Jeff Matthews Sounds good to me. I think a list of mentors for a range of instruments would be a good start. Louis is The first. How about you Simon. Trumpet mentor? I found a reference in an old New Orleans book somewhere which talked about how this music was passed on in the early days. It was passed down from musician to musician. It was done by mentorship – as well as tuition.

DixieMix Jazzband In all honesty I still want to learn!! I would probably struggle as a mentor as I don’t really read music or chords. I have always played by ear. It’s something I’m working on.

Jeff Matthews I feel a mentor needs a love for the music, enough knowledge of the history of the music to understand it and a desire to encourage and help someone progress. A mentor is not a teacher of musical theory. But is a helping hand. A reference point along the way. Answers questions: “How do I get that sound/play that tune/which strings or reeds do you recommend”. I use my ears and I also read music/arrangements to some degree. Often I wish I could do what you do and play entirely by ear without reference to any dots. That is something I am working on too. Wouldn’t it be great to form a knowledge base of experts within this music who will share there expertise.

Peter Mark Butler AS MODERATOR OF JAZZERS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MUCH MORE INVOLVEMENT IN THIS DEBATE ALONG WITH SUGGESTIONS FOR LAUNCHING A MENTORING PROGRAMME AND EVEN JAZZ CAMPS IN THE UK.

EXAMINING FUTURE PROSPECTS

Jazzers’ Debate No 4

Swing Dance & LindyHop

Initiated by:

John Petters who posted:

GNSH – Goodnight Sweetheart – Internatioabnal Swing Dance Camp – Weekend, UK www.gnsh.co.uk

Peter Mark Butler So how about this Clare Gray and Jeff Matthews? Time we started weaving a little of this kind of magic in our campaign for a New Orleans jazz revival? Ties in with Jazz Camps and festivals for younger bands covered in Debates 1,2 & 3.

Clare Gray This is a dance class that we belong to, so I can say that they are enthusiastic about jazz and traditional music – but they sometimes struggle I believe to get the bands to play the right stuff for dances. Not so much the style of music, more the discipline to really watch their audiences and keep them on the floor. There’s a tendency to go off into noodling instrumentals, forgetting that dancers need a bit of a structure to the length and delivery of a number. All that said, there’s loads of scope for bands and dance clubs to get together. Is there money out there though to pay for larger bands?

Jeff Matthews I play traditional jazz and also get hired to play gigs with a 9 piece dance band. I keep suggesting that the dance band become more swing orientated. There is an audience for it already. I see a great chance of a ‘Revival’ with ‘swing/jazz’ similar to that which happened in the 50’s & 60’s with traditional jazz. There are already young bands playing this stuff along with traditional jazz tunes at some very classy venues and social events in the UK and Europe. They are not putting on a sit down concert but are part of a party atmosphere where people dress in the theme and dance – fun! Perhaps traditional bands could start to add this swing style to their existing repertoire. As I understand it, the original New Orleans bands played for dances and street parties, not concerts. Straight forward tunes and solos required. Something with a definite melody and rhythm which dancers can work with. Should we be discussing this further on this forum and adding suggested tune lists?

DixieMix Jazzband Norwich has a very strong swing dance scene. The challenge is getting those dance groups to move from recorded music to live music. With the recorded there are obviously smaller overheads. We are starting to get a good dance following with the band but unfortunately not all venues we perform have the space ! Glad you had a good night, John.

John Petters Here’s a few observations. Clare has it right and she is speaking from a dancer’s standpoint. Bands have to play danceable tempi. The rhythm is paramount. Polite doesn’t work. Think Carnegie hall, 1938. There is another possible problem. Younger audiences are used to having music that has been dumbed down by the media. The tunes (where there are any) tend to be simple. It may mean that a traditional jazz front line with polyphony may sound a jumbled mess to ears that have not been accustomed to hearing three separate melodic lines. This will not apply to everybody, of course, and it risks sounding condescending, which I hope it doesn’t – but riff tunes, like Flyin’ Home, Seven Come Eleven etc – are shorter numbers than you would play at a jazz club – about 3 – 4 minutes. We didn’t achieve this on Friday in every case – but watch the dancers. Presentation is another key area. Much traditional jazz I hear is like watching paint dry. It is not good enough just to play well – you have to go out and entertain. Pete Allen does this very well, as do the Jive Aces. Simon’s point about small venues and recorded music is valid. It will come to bands doing self promotions in conjunction with dance clubs.

Jeff Matthews Thank you. Interesting and important points. I am interested in more suggestions about tunes that work in the swing dance style and the tempos. I have done dance band work and even now do work with a quartet which plays anything from the Gay Gordons to The Conga. I have introduced a few swing era tunes too for ‘social’, less formal dancing. What is paramount is the correct tempo and plainly stated melody lines. Where the improvisation takes place it must be in tempo and understandable by a largely none jazz audience. The drummer is the key and should understand the need for the rhythm to be correct. But it can be done by us jazzers too. Those bands who still have a strong traditional following may not need to worry about it but it is the struggling bands and the bands who will be sustaining and continuing this music into the future for whom it is perhaps worth considering.

DixieMix Jazzband I’m with you John. Entertainment is the key to the younger audience. They have been continually fed music with visual accompaniment (much of the time the music even seems to take second place in that formula!!). They want to see something happening on stage. A connection. I’m not saying we shouldn’t deliver a first class musical performance either but some bands are guilty of not even breaking a smile let alone talking to the audience in a way they can feel part of the night. Sadly I don’t think many younger (commercial) audiences would care who wrote the tune and the history behind it.

A band needs to be versatile. There are times to go all out as a ‘function type’ band and there are occasions when we have a jazz audience who want to listen and enjoy some interesting takes behind each tune.

Jeff Matthews Agree. Entertainment is the key. It has to be fun for the audience. It also has to be danceable.

Peter Mark Butler This Swing Dance Debate is one of several debates recently initiated on Jazzers. It ties in with my aim in launching the Jazzers Group – to revitalise the roots of jazz and in particular traditional (or should that be original New Orleans jazz?). Some may question it, but Swing Dance along with LindyHop can be one of the ways of attracting a new generation back to jazz.

Clare Gray This is all great stuff – very encouraging for the dancers – some of whom are younger and are not used to interacting with live music. Performance is all – otherwise they’d just revert to using recorded material. I have been to events with both and although we get a good dance and have a great time in either case, there is certainly more of a buzz when a live band is doing its thing and responding to the audience – recognising when the dance floor needs filling, or slowing down to give the dancers a breather when it’s needed – then picking it back up again. Its a joy to watch. Keep going all you jazzers we need you! PS – if anyone is going ‘out to play’ and wants a singer to tag along you know where to find one!

Jeff Matthews Clare : What dances do you do at the swing events? Do you recognise the tune names/tempos used? There are many bands in the USA playing this style. Some also include hot traditional jazz very successfully. Others like the Jonathan Stout bands are mostly pure swing style dance bands it seems.

Peter Mark Butler I’ll just add a small point at this stage and that’s to vouch for Clare as a jazz singer – oh, and as a dancer! (By the way, this reminds of the Key Facts Bulletin of old, Clare. Perhaps we should introduce the title “Key Facts for a Jazz Revival”.)

Clare Gray Thank you Mr Butler – always a gent!

All sorts thrown into the mix – we’ve been doing classes to quite traddy stuff lately, 1920s – 30s, Charleston style too – but the public events tend to knock out the standards and most people learn the names because they download the music to practice to or ask around (or it’s obvious from the words if there’s any singing sometimes of course!). Just off to class now so I’ll pay attention to the numbers in the next day or so – and also supply a list of some of the numbers that seem to come up regularly if that’s helpful to any of you? Let me know. As to tempi recognition, I suspect most of us aren’t too on top of that – just as long as we can work our 8-count or 6-count steps into it. The odd foxtrot slips in for those events that are more 40’s-focused – a lot of those around as you’ll know. Dancing slippers on now, more later if wanted?

Peter Mark Butler Yes, more later please, Clare. But enough of this “Mr Butler” although I like the “always a gent” bit!

Jeff Matthews Clare, yes more please. Cheers.

Peter Mark Butler Clare and Jeff have opened the door wide not only for this debate to continue but to aim for constructive progress.

EXAMINING FUTURE PROSPECTS

Jazzers’ Debate No 5

Encouraging Signs for Jazz in Europe (including LindyHop!).
So Why Not in The UK?

Initiator:
Peter Mark Butler

This Debate is a natural follow on to Debate Nos 1-4 because it demonstrates that the goals they present could be achieved in the UK if only we would be self-effacing enough to learn from our European Jazz Cousins. After all, was not “European Traditional Jazz” – which continue to thrive – a very successful offshoot from “British Traditional Jazz” introduced to our shores from New Orleans? Indeed, many of our top musicians have fled these shores to Germany, Holland and Sweden.

Peter Mark Butler In the wake of the Jazz&Jazz analysis of the BBC programme “Jazz is Dead”, Trevor Stent has thrown out this challenge to jazz in the UK. Any jazz luminaries out there willing to take up the challenge?

Encouraging Signs for Jazz in Europe, So Why Not in the UK? www.jazzandjazz.com

Jeff Lewis Thank you Trevor for having the b@££s to stand up and say what quite a few of us have thought for a long time.

Kay Leppard Peter: I think the Colyer knockers have been at it so long that some of his fellow musicians and fans who also have much wider tastes but are never given any credit for it by those who are happy to generalise at every opportunity, are bored by it all and I am sure they would be the last ones to want to hear what the Ken Colyer Trust – with limited means – tried to do for young musicians.

Peter Mark Butler I sympathise with that, Kay, and have encountered it myself. I attended a couple of the Trust’s meetings at Hemsby and remember reports on the educational endeavours. At least back then they were striving for some kind of progress. My point now is that if Brittany and Spain are making such progress, is there no one who can come forward in the UK to strive to emulate them.

Peter Mark Butler Pete Lay (Editor of Just Jazz) posted the following comment on my Jazz&Jazz article (above) and I felt it should be repeated here:

“Who are the jazz luminaries who are likely to step forward to the challenge? Probably only those who still believe jazz started with Charlie Parker or even John Coltrane. Music colleges are to blame. Their courses don’t base their instruction on anything pre-1940, except lip service to Louis Armstrong. Similarly, Johnny Boston, James Evans, Adrian Cox are playing our music despite everything else, certainly not helped by their peers. [More recently, Pete Lay has written: “I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”]

He continued, “I have just witnessed this past weekend a band from Enkhuizen, The Revivalists, which has Johnny Boston on clarinet, tenor sax, and vocals. What exuberance from five youngish lads (if you want to include the drummer’s dad on string bass). Here was spirit personified, all played extremely well, and it was our music!!!

“Sorry, but us old farts will have to fade away in this country before the young musician decides it is time to revel in the music of Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Bunk Johnson, George Lewis etc, but please not another bunch of Colyer copyists – there was only one Ken Colyer, and as Percy Humphrey said of him: “he knows”.

DixieMix Jazzband Trust me, there are a lot of great younger musicians out there who have not come out of the university “mainstream” mould and who have in fact come to traditional jazz through old fashioned gigging apprenticeships. I was massively influenced by Pat Halcox and it was guys like him who took time to help me and encourage me.

There are a few brilliant young trad bands I know of but the biggest problem I face is that its nearly impossible to get on the festival circuit because (a) there are less festivals due to audiences dwindling and (b) they are very much a closed shop with the same bands and often the same musicians rotating to make different line ups at the festivals.

Getting the break seems near impossible. Maybe down to the organisers? I appreciate bands don’t want to give up their slot to someone else but until younger bands become part of the circuit the younger audiences are going to stay away. Something needs to be done to keep traditional jazz alive in this country.

Simon

Peter Mark Butler ITS WORTH REPEATING SIMON’S STATEMENT: “UNTIL YOUNGER BANDS BECOME PART OF THE CIRCUIT THE YOUNGER AUDIENCES ARE GOING TO STAY AWAY.” THERE ARE SOME OUTSTANDING YOUNGSTERS OUT THERE BUT THEY ARE BY FAR OUTNUMBERED BY THE “OLD RELIABLES”. TIME TO GIVE THE EMERGING BANDS A BOOST FOR THE SAKE OF JAZZ. INDEED, TIME TO START YOUNGER STILL AND ASPIRE TO THE EUROPEAN EXAMPLE – JAZZ IN SCHOOLS!

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 6

Jazz Clubs & Ageing Fans

Initiator: Ian Bateman:

I’m quite amused to read some of the threads on Jazzers about how we can keep jazz club promoters and punters happy. I think it’s really a no-win situation, every club is different.

After years on the concert circuit with Messrs Lightfoot and Bilk I’ve re-visited some of the jazz clubs to launch my own band and spread the word. The reactions have been poles apart between the various clubs we have played at.

We’ve had jazz club gigs where the band has been very enthusiastically received, we’ve sold loads of CDs and we’ve been asked back. On the other hand we’ve had gigs where we’ve had a very low-key reception, sold no CDs and we don’t really want to go back!

The only way forward for bands is not to compromise. If the members of a jazz club do not like your music, there is always a club where they will. Go where you are appreciated, it is a waste of time trying to convert people who will not be swayed.

We have just had a very successful concert at Warwick School. 46 Music pupils were all eager to learn jazz music and we gave them a workshop (on a Saturday) at which they all took part with a refreshing eagerness. They then turned up at our evening concert with their friends/parents and filled the theatre. Everybody won and went home happy. The youngsters out there can dig our music and we didn’t have to grow our hair long to get them interested. Jazz clubs should encourage younger people into their fold, it’s for the good of all of us.

Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly Ian – but as long as “jazz clubs” are the domain of the old, half witted, stick-in-the-mud old farts that they are, then we’re never going to get the youngsters in. Schools such as you just describe are certainly one of the ways forward. We used to do a posh school near Ipswich (the headmaster had previously been head at Shrewsbury School, where we also used to play) and it was great… Its these shitty old school jazz clubs that I have a gripe about.

Louis Lince What is it about the “Jazz Club” scene in the UK that makes one yearn to play in Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Scandinavia? Could it be that over there all ages attend and the bands are treated like human beings. Having said that I don’t write off all clubs here.

Jeff Lewis Unlike most of the rest of Europe, GB has become massively hijacked by a hideous caricature of US style marketing ethos. I don’t mean in the obvious “Britain Has Talent” way, but more insidiously, via the subliminal inculcation of an “expected model”. This can lead to a “safety in numbers” “herd” mentality, (euphemistically called “peer pressure”) where you are either part of the pack, or its prey. Whereas this problem by no means affects everybody, it does affect enough to make large numbers wary of trying anything “different”. But there is a bit of a backlash/enlightenment starting in Ayr, Edinburgh, Twynholm. I’ve found the Liverpool pub scene to be superb, full of people who just enjoy good music played well.

Graham Smith A certain provincial jazz club took the opportunity to book the Bateman Brothers and it was only their 2nd billed performance methinks. The majority liked the band and marvelled at the quality of the musicianship. A few remarked on the volume, some acknowledged it was different. A small number said it wasn’t their cup of tea but isn’t that their prerogative even though I can’t understand why. At least we have the freedom in this country to have the right to like what we like and musicians have the freedom to perform the music they prefer.

A major concern for promoters is firstly engaging bands that audiences will attend and pay to see. New bands, unknown bands are an obvious risk. However, when a promoter engages quality bands and musicians on a regular basis they could well encourage a loyal and regular attendance based upon a reputation for doing so. I can think of one provincial club that has managed that and established a popular and well supported annual festival which includes in its programme different genres of jazz along with professional performers, including some lesser known youngsters, who have consequently been in demand at other clubs and festivals. Having an open mind as a promoter helps, as well as being a bit braver than the norm.

Bob Ironside Hunt – I wouldn’t put such clubs in the “old school” category! I could name such places, but don’t think it would be right…. and besides, I think we all know the type of clubs I’m referring to!

Moderator’s Note: DARE WE NAME THEM if we are to tackle the problem? Without fans there would be no clubs. The next Jazzers Debate is related to this and is entitled “Ageing Fans and Cherry Pickers”.

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers Debate No 7

Ageing Fans & Cherry Pickers

Initiator:
Trefor Williams

It’s an on-going problem, nationwide, keeping our jazz clubs and venues thriving. Wherever I go, I try to encourage punters to support the club, not just the band. This “cherry-picking” attitude can be a very negative and destructive way of thinking. We shouldn’t just support the tried and tested. Obviously, if someone doesn’t like the music of a certain band, they cannot be expected to attend, but if it’s a new band they haven’t heard before, they should have a bash at a new experience and make the scene a movement, not a monument.

I feel musicians themselves could help more than they do. So often you only see local musicians at the venues when they are booked to play. It would be good to see the guys showing up regularly and creating a social meeting place where punters can talk to musos and the chaps can talk music and gigs, while giving the performing band a kick. I’m sure this would create a vital atmosphere and boost trade, especially over the bar.

Come along, chaps. Get out there and dig in to the jazz scene. There are plenty of good sounds to inspire and encourage us to keep creating joyful noises.

Peter Mark Butler:

Back in June, 2012, Lois Lloyd wrote to me at Jazz&Jazz: ““Hi Peter, I see you are noting our [jazz’s] history, a useful deed as we are losing so many wonderful musicians and at 64 David and I are often the youngest punters at the gig!” Lois is a member of the Plymouth Jazz Club.

Then, just the other day, I had this message from Ivan Halloran, an Australia broadcaster, in response to my Jazz&Jazz feature on Rich Bennett’s band at Hemsby. Ivan wanted to know more about Rich’s band and wrote: “My only interest is the promotion of Trad to a younger and younger audience in the hope that we can grow stronger, as we older jazzoes die off.”

Jazz Clubs across the UK are facing similar issues. Ageing fans and musicians and falling audience numbers to the extent that some clubs are closing their doors. And this despite clubs such as Leeds discovering ways of attracting younger fans.

Then just the other day Jeff Matthew’s emailed me: “Just arrived back from the Oswestry gig. Again New Faces! Around 45 payers. If all turned up at the same time we would be doing well. But hip replacements plus other issues and responsibilities mean that we have an increasing but revolving club audience. We tried an alternative band one month and it failed.”

I can identify a key issue from my own experience in helping Smiffy promote the Peartree Jazz Club in Welwyn Garden City. We recently featured Tad Newton’s Jazz Friends – one of the elite bands. Yet numbers were down. You would think fans would turn out in force to see a such a prestigious band at the club for the first time. So why do they cherry pick? Could it be that they’ve become stayed and just want to see familiar faces? I can name several other regular bands at the club which always attract a full house. This might prove that point.

So we need to see what we can do to counter this trend. If we don’t have different bands the club will become stale. And after a time the fans might well stay away because they become fed up with seeing the same bands over and over again! We mustn’t let this become a “no win”!

Yet younger fans would have enjoyed the Jazz Friends’ repertoire. So it gets right back to attracting younger bands, younger musician and younger fans to jazz.

But perhaps it’s not just that. Maybe it’s also about rebuilding club fan bases and memberships by seeking out fans lost to jazz because they don’t think there’s anywhere left to see live jazz in their areas.

The comments on Cherry Picking and Jazz Clubs streamed in:

Maggie Peplow We tried doing a Jazz Jive class for half an hour before the Waterworks started with the aim of encouraging a younger audience. This worked for a few weeks, but sadly most of them drifted off after a while. I think it’s something to do with the mindset of the young now, they want and get everything immediately and therefore they don’t really value what they have. Its the same with their music. I am sure most of us jazzers treasure our records, even our CDs, but the young keep their music in their phones – what will their memories consist of when they reach our age?

Bob Ironside Hunt As I said in the other post… its a lost cause, and a pointless exercise as far as provincial traditional jazz clubs are concerned. All very well Trefor, but its not that simple. For instance, after a 6.5 week tour, I’m sure Alison is not going to be best chuffed if I go out to a jazz club. Also, when I still lived in St Albans my nearest jazz club was the Pump House at Watford… last train back to St Albans at 9:30pm…. not much use really. Even if you do bother to go, you have to stand up at the bar or something for fear of taking one of the “regulars'” seats, and getting frowned at for being a “modern” player anyway!

Jeff Lewis I think we’ve all seen instances where the extreme conservatism prevalent on the trad scene particularly, has scared off new faces permanently.

Louis Lince like the Lindy Hoppers being scared off by the old guard.

Bob Ironside Hunt And as for attracting the youngsters? Don’t make me laugh. It’s never going to happen – not so long as these “clubs” are situated in crumbling British Legion clubs, mouldy village halls without a bar, or conversely in some characterless civic centre, more reminiscent of a school hall than anything else… The key to it is the media. The problem is jazz, especially vintage jazz, is not accessible to the younger folk… its not on the TV and hardly ever on the radio – and even if it was they wouldn’t tune in because of the perceived “old fogyness” about it. Sorry folks…. but the days are numbered….

Jeff Lewis I agree Bob. The days of “that” scene are numbered, and getting shorter for all the reasons discussed so far. I doubt the music will die per se, but it will go through a period of being included in other genres, before it stands fully in its own right again, as is happening with Electro Swing filtering though to Lindy Hopping etc. Much of the swing stuff is now entering pop culture, and we have to exploit this niche.

Al Swainger Fair points both. There’s definitely a lot of local musicians griping about not getting more work who don’t make the effort to support each other and ‘show face’ to help foster a local scene. At the same time – if you have been working a lot it’s not necessarily what you want to do on your day off – but it’s fair to suggest that we all make the effort where possible.

There’s maybe a difference between music presented at dedicated jazz clubs & free venues like pubs. Clubs can be intimidating because you have to pay to get in and then find yourself in an alien environment where there are perhaps unwritten rules of etiquette that can make you feel unwelcome. Pubs and the like are a blank canvas socially and, in my experience, in those environments punters of all ages tend to enjoy what’s put in front of them – so long as it’s delivered in an entertaining and sincere way. But – those gigs need to survive long enough for it to become a social norm – if no one turns up it’s not surprising that the landlord or whoever is promoting doesn’t persist for long if they aren’t ardent jazz fans. If even the musos don’t support each other how can we expect anyone else to? – the world doesn’t owe us a living.

Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly Al – and as time goes on, the number of potential landlords who may only have a passing interest in jazz will get less and less, and as the current “youngsters” take over the role of landlord such opportunities will cease…. Ian is right… somewhere like Baker Street in Swindon works! But I’m afraid these spots are very few and far between.

And as for the “jazz club” – forget it. Al got it right when he said: “Clubs can be intimidating because you have to pay to get in and then find yourself in an alien environment where there are perhaps unwritten rules of etiquette that can make you feel unwelcome”

Ian Bateman My word, Swindon is an exception to the rule! We have a trendy pub called Baker Street which is heaving with youngsters on Fridays and Saturdays. On Tuesdays they have jazz nights and albeit FOC they are quite well supported by people of all ages. The Bateman Bros have been in there as well as some very ‘modern’ (I hate that word) bands. The money isn’t great but much better than the London pubs and most of the musicians play there because they are appreciated. I’m with Bob, take these clubs to somewhere that is more conducive to attracting younger people, it works in Swindon (once the centre if jazz apathy) so it’s bound to work elsewhere!

Graham Smith Do I take it that you won’t be returning to a thriving and well supported Pershore Jazz Club then Bob?

Jeff Matthews I agree, musicians should support other bands and venues where possible. However, a few years ago I was booked as a dep and turned up at the gig only to see the far more experienced musician I was depping for enter the club and pick a table right next to me. It was very uncomfortable for many reasons. So, supportive and sensitive visits only please. May I take Bob’s point and acknowledge his greater understanding of the scene observed over a lot of years. But as the older fans and muso’s disappear off the end of the conveyor belt, a fresh generation of oldies will appear on the horizon who will have discovered this music from the vast amounts now on the Internet. The world is round and cycles repeat as in the revivalist times in the 50’s, etc.

Ian Bateman Bob, they were saying this in the 80’s. I’m with Jeff on this point, a new generation of oldies does indeed come around. I and the musicians in my band always make time to chat with the punters, they are all important to us because they are our customers effectively. I often wonder how it is that these new ‘oldies’ weren’t around when I got started in the early 80’s (and they were in their thirties), yet here they are – regular jazz club punters in the Autumn of their years. It will always be this way until the young generation come back – we’ve been waiting nearly 50 years…

Jeff Matthews Things have changed. Music has changed. The music which is heavily promoted has changed. Promotion by radio, tv and record companies is that which is unsophisticated and therefore can be sold and sold again for big money – for the pockets of the few. No jazz will ever be as popular as the top ten ‘fudge’. We now have 2 generations of young people brought up on it and living lives full of distractions. This is not post war Britain. Society has evolved and revolved and changed around us. BUT the music has survived because it carries in my mind a ‘code’ created by good composers who were ‘in line’ with the good honest people of their time. The music lifts people. Even the Blues are not depressing unlike pop culture ‘blues’ which tend to be miserable songs about failure. The music we play is special. Some people will recognise this and seek it out, on into the future. We just need to learn how to promote it well to those people who recognise its merits for what it is. Classic, trad, New Orleans, old jazz, are all labels to define style just like fillet, rump, porterhouse, steak. Different flavours. Some want peppercorn sauce and others want a ‘banjo sauce’. I think we agonise too much over all of this. It’s great music and a great ‘product’. We just need to adapt its marketing to a new 40+ generation. I think we keep looking at the hole and not the doughnut. I also have strong ideas about where the new musicians playing this music should come from and it is different to where most people think. Just my opinion at this time.

Bob Ironside Hunt  Jeff – I agree entirely. Whereas there is an element of truth in the idea that there will always be a “new” older generation, the fact remains that we are not getting YOUNG people in… And what may have appeared as a put down to the jazz clubs on my part was really meant to be a criticism of the way in which jazz (of any kind) is presented to and perceived by the younger folk… and certain types of jazz club (not just “trad” or “new orleans” biased ones) do absolutely nothing to help this.

Jeff Matthews Yes, in total agreement. Young people have to be helped to see jazz of all styles as current and fun. I feel that to appreciate some forms of more modern jazz needs a more educated ear by the listener. Same with many forms of classical music. But Radio 3 and Classic FM can provide an ‘education’ if people are interested enough to tune them in. There is also a social acceptability to classical music. But now jazz has nothing similar and established in the uk culture. I myself sometimes get confused by being offered jazz on radio which sometimes would be better catalogued under another music style, however good it might be. Therefore the links in practical terms are venues and clubs as Bob said. But exactly how should they reach out to this younger audience

Ian Bateman I like it, we spend too much time looking at the hole and not the doughnut. That thought will stay with me forever.

Jeff Lewis It ain’t what you do, it’s the way that you do it…….. and who you do it to.

Bob Ironside Hunt Anyway – its academic…. in 10 or 15 years there won’t be any traditional jazz clubs anyway. All the punters will be dead, and the organisers… and the committee members…. AND most of the musicians.

Jeff Lewis I think that might be true of “Trad”, but it mustn’t be forgotten that “Trad” is an artificial music, easy listening and innocuous, which evolved to fill a hole in the British pop music scene between the end of Big Bands and the start of Rock & Roll. While it contains elements of New Orleans Jazz, Blues and 1920’s dance music, it is much more superficial than its component influences and by definition, must therefore occupy transient ground. There are well known historical parallels to this, most obviously, the need for the first mass interest “jazz” records to be cut of a fairly anodyne white band (ODJB), and more latterly the transmutation of rough and raw Punk into New Wave. There are loads of other examples, but these are the two most obvious. I think the future for Jazz is a lot more rosy than people give it credit for. Maybe I’m deluded, but time will tell.

Bob Ironside Hunt I agree… But I was thinking of the “traditional jazz club”, as you know, of course. The younger people involved in the “trad” scene today, such as Amy Roberts, Jamie Brownfield and so on will just continue to play, but it won’t be “trad” as such… (to be honest, they don’t do that now anyway) and it won’t be in pokey dives run by old farts…

Jeff Lewis In fact Bob. There’s half an argument to suggest that the colloquial tendency to call everything non-bebop “Trad” is having a suppressing effect on those of us trying to march into the future. I’ve always disliked the word for that reason, it’s just that “Traditonal Jazz” is just such a descriptive convenience……..

Bob Ironside Hunt Yes – and not to mention the other “tags” adopted by the various club-goers…. New Orleans… (bollocks – have they been there?) Chicago… Dixieland…. And that’s all just within the so-called “trad” bracket. Plus, when I said “traditional jazz club” perhaps I should have said “the tradional “jazz club” ” …. yeah?

Jeff Lewis Ellington played “Black folk music” of course.

Bob Ironside Hunt That’s bollocks too…!!!

Jeff Lewis Quite probably, but his words, not mine…..

Jeff Lewis True

Bob Ironside Hunt Somehow I don’t think the likes of “Blue Again” or “Memories of You” count as Black folk music…. he played loads of printed stock arrangements too you know…

Jeff Lewis I’m sure stock arrangements must have been his bread and butter work at his residencies. People enjoy the familiar, and he was paid to entertain and supply the band.

Bob Ironside Hunt Exactly…. so hardly Black folk music!

Jeff Lewis Meant that tongue in cheek. Maybe Ellington did too?

Bob Ironside Hunt Its easier – just get the printed arrangement, and doctor it a bit. Saved time. They all did it…. All the bands back then played stocks, but with their own twist on it…

Ian Bateman ‘Modern’. Another descriptive convenience. ‘I don’t like modern jazz’ is like saying ‘I don’t like America’ … which bit??

Bob Ironside Hunt Yes indeed…. they still call Parker and Dizzy “modern”… nonsense.

Andrew Fawcett you are right, Trefor. Punters go to see “names” at the expense of some young musicians who are often more interesting. And many local musicians only go to venues when they have gigs, and not to hear others. (why should others listen to them if they won’t….)

Bob Ironside Hunt Have you not read the above thread Andrew?

Ian Bateman Most jazz clubs cannot afford ‘names’, mind you, depends on who is regarded as a ‘name’. There are some great bands out there regarded as not worth the extra money to get them in and conversely some absolutely awful bands regarded as top names.

Andrew Fawcett Bob, I read Trefor’s first post, but not all the thread.

Bob Ironside Hunt Ok Andrew… We have rather qualified Trefor’s original posting since then!

Jeff Matthews Frankly guys, if I take some of the comments in this thread seriously I think we should all jump of a nearby bridge. But that will not solve the problems. It will open up a position for another musician though. Look, it’s not just trad or classic or whatever label you use. Lots of things are having a hard time. Even bingo!!! I am at the moment in a university town. Thousands of kids out clubbing. The clubs are promoting like mad to get the punters in. They are just about holding their own. But…they are trying to combat the down turn even in this trade. We or you need to do the same. Find new ideas. If you don’t like the jazz clubs, don’t accept bookings there. Plus, those “old farts” are at least loyal fans in the main who will pay the entrance money that pays the band. Remember, you will be an old fart very soon but will not want to be described as such and certainly won’t feel like one. Labels: all things have labels including tins of Beans to differentiate it from soup. Quite useful really. Who wants to go to a venue that just says “music” played by a band. £10 please. You want to know what style of music it is, I would think. People keep talking about attracting a younger audience. What age is that exactly? Get a bunch of 20 year olds in a club by giving free or cheap drinks plus you as the best jazz band in the land, and they won’t give a damn. It’s not their music! Promote to 40 year olds who want a night out to boogie on down or dress up in 20’s costume and they will pay a good price to hear you play. Just my spurious thoughts.

Jeff Lewis Complex picture.

Jeff Matthews Yes, a complex picture, but the UK is small enough to make changes that will make a difference. Plus we British are a resourceful bunch when pressured. We have great music, great bands and loads of experience and talent. So a person in an audience wants a banjo or doesn’t know what a sax is? So what! Smile, they are ignorant and you know it – but they did pay the entrance. Just play for the other 99% who love what we/you do. By the way, I like banjo’s and saxes. ‘The Joy of Sax’ – Mmmm…good book title?

Bob Ironside Hunt I AM an old fart already by the way.

Ivan Halloran I am an even older Old Fart! This music has had me enthralled for the past sixty years. My friends and myself work hard in many ways to encourage, not only young musos, but all young people to become involved in the promotion of the jazz genre. We have some good radio programs in this State, promoting 30s to 60s jazz in a predominately Country and Western Culture.

Peter Mark Butler

To date there have been well over 100 comments on Trefor’s post on supporting jazz clubs, the post on ageing fans and cherry pickers, Ian Bateman’s related post and the discussions re clarinet, sax and banjo – all related. I’m wondering how long to keep the forum open before I attempt a studied resume. My object is to encourage involvement in an analysis of what it’s going to take to ensure a future for jazz.

Jeff Matthews Peter, perhaps keep it open and summarise as we go along. There is a whole section of the ‘trade’ who might have a different viewpoint. Those are the classic jazz bands who never play pub and club gigs. They do corporate and private gigs. They might not think the situation is quite the same as their audience is different and not so age defined. It would be interesting to hear from them.

Peter Mark Butler So let’s get them onto Jazzers and involved in the debates. Members of the group are free to invite others to join Jazzers, including such “elite” musos and bands.

Jeff Matthews Actually there are also a number of young musicians in this music and it would be interesting to hear from them too.

Peter Mark Butler Several are already on Jazzers and could comment. Others can be invited to join by current members. The more we get on board the better the sounding board.

ANY MEMBER OF MY FACEBOOK JAZZERS GROUP IS WELCOME TO INVITE FELLOW BAND LEADERS, MUSICIANS , CLUBS AND FANS TO JOIN THE GROUP. I WOULD WELCOME AN INFLUX OF YOUNGER JAZZERS TO MAKE THEIR OPINIONS KNOWN, ESPECIALLY ON WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO SET ASIDE PETTY ISSUES AND FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE – A REVIVAL IN THE FORTUNES OF JAZZ.

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 8

New Orleans & UK Traditional Jazz

Initiator:
John Petters

I listened to the second part of the Chris Barber documentary on Radio 2 a little while ago. Both episodes were interesting. I’ve since been listening to the CD ‘King of the Blues’ by Bunk. The contrast is stunning. As I said on the Ken Colyer group last night, I always found Chris’ band rhythmically weak – as was most British Trad of the 50s. The feel of real New Orleans Jazz was so different. Ken Colyer got closest to it in my view with the band containing Colin Bowden. Listening to the CD that accompanies Mike Pointon and Ray Smith’s book, ‘Goin’ Home’, this contrast is highlighted. Ken recorded with some New Orleans musicians while over there and then came back and did the sessions with the Barber band. The front-line is very good, but the rhythm section is like a dance band with a banjo.

Episode 2 dealt with Chris’s promotion of blues and gospel singers. It was great to hear Sister Rosetta Tharpe along with Brownie McGee etc, but there were some truly awful recordings with a rock rhythm that almost had me reaching for the off switch. Nevertheless, two shows which gave an insight into the Trad boom and Chris has to be admired for his success and longevity.

Jeff Matthews Hi John I listened to that 2nd part too. Fascinating. It made me re-examine my definitions of what ‘Trad’ is or was and what is defined in the UK as New Orleans jazz. What was the latter Alex Welsh band playing along with Kenny Ball and Acker by these definitions? In the USA ‘trad’ is applied differently to here in the UK. As I found last year when I visited New Orleans, their jazz music was always a lot wider in scope than just ‘Revivalist’ jazz. So the BBC interview begs the question. What was Chris Barber playing when not promoting blues and skiffle? And why was and is ‘Trad’ so denigrated here in the UK? I hope this gets the postings going. Opinions please.

Jim McIntosh A million flies can’t be wrong…

John Petters I think that Barber, Colyer and Bilk were trying to play ‘New Orleans Revival Jazz’ a la Bunk & George Lewis. Humph, Cy Laurie, Mike Daniels etc were trying to play classic jazz a la Morton, Oliver, Armstrong. Freddy Randall, Kenny Ball and Alex Welsh were playing Condonesque Dixieland or Chicago style. Kenny always had a Louis slant.

As to what Chris was doing when not promoting Blues and Skiffle, there were the many recordings from the 50s that sound typical British trad. He did some sessions with Americans which were much better rhythmically. As the programme revealed, he was interested in doing different things and his current big band is evidence of that. Why do I denigrate Brit trad? – because it has no depth rhythmically. Rhythm is the key to jazz. It was stated in the programme that Trad jazz begat Rock. Heaven help us all.

Jeff Matthews So who did it right and who is doing it right today?

Fred Burnett I’m glad I’m not a musician. I didn’t have to analyse it back in the late 50s or early 60s, I just had to decide if I liked it or not. I liked Colyer, Barber, Bilk, Ball, Charlesworth, Lightfoot, Wallis, Ashman, T7 & Ball. Wasn’t keen on Welsh, Lyttelton, Gillespie or Condon. Such was my ignorance I once wrote to Tony Davis (JazzFM North) listing my likes and dislikes and asked the question, “Does this mean I like New Orleans Jazz rather than Dixieland Jazz?”. His reply? You like British Trad!”

Jeff Matthews I like all the good bits! I never labeled what I heard as ‘Trad’ or ‘Dixieland’ or anything else. However, when I put a band together a few years ago I found that the word ‘Trad’ was still recognised by the general public. To them it was a simple term that set our kind of jazz apart from modern jazz. Not a term for purists and musicians who understand the finer details, but for ‘Joe and Jane’ in the street it was something they still understood in a positive way. Morton, Oliver, Bechet, would not have been recognised. Trad was and is. Perhaps we should reconsider the definitions and use them more in the way the Americans do? And probably in the way the general public still seem to do. A ‘catch all’ title.

John Petters Fred, musicians will always see things differently to listeners. It is like us both, as licensed radio amateurs, viewing things differently to short wave listeners. Because of my relatively young age, I did not have the encumbrance of having Trad as part of my youth. In 1963, I was 10 and the Beatles were happening. When I really got hooked at age 15, it was the real thing I heard and I found the British version in the main, lacking depth. There are some Trad musicians who only listen to British Trad and of course they are further removed from the real thing. From a point of a desire to keep improving, my source material needs to be authentic – and I am in a learning process which will continue as long as I am a performer. I know some musos who have stopped listening. They are the ones who tend to speak less, musically.

John Petters  Jeff, I tend not to describe what I do as trad. I will say I play traditional jazz and further define it if need be. The labels are so confused these days anyway and a lot of what is called jazz, just isn’t.

Jeff Matthews John, totally agree. I missed the trad era too and was listening to small band names from the USA. I was around 13 when the Beatles came on the scene and largely swept ‘trad’ away. But later I did hear Acker, Kenny and some Barber and enjoyed the joy I heard – commercial or not.

John Petters Acker’s band was always the most interesting, especially with Ken Sims. Like the bands of Max Collie and Phil Mason later on, when Ron McKay left, their rhythm sections never recovered.

Jeff Matthews Here is a clip I have never seen before with Ron Mckay on drums. It’s when jazz was treated as fun and happy music and allowed into the cinema. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcaK_9Bzt18 Start of ‘Band Of Thieves’ – Acker Bilk

Kay Leppard I came to jazz in about 1960. At the end of the revival and in the middle of all the British ‘trad’ bands which – as I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this site – has always been considered a derogatory word and I always say to the unconverted when they mention trad jazz that I like traditional jazz. I always define British trad as ‘play it loud and play it fast’ – not mutes and no light and shade. First time I heard Ken I knew it sounded different, but at that stage I didn’t know why. I liked very early Barber and early Acker. In those days people were either Colyer or Barber fans and never the twain shall mix! Colyer was my man for his ‘dirty’ playing and the ‘feeling’ in the music. Barber was too ‘clean’ and too ‘rehearsed’. Didn’t like Ball, Lightfoot and although I could appreciate Alex Welsh, it wasn’t what I was looking for. A few years later I discovered George, Bunk, etc. Can only take Condon and Wild Bill in short doses although I know I will be shot down by many – especially musicians, but I’m sorry, their music doesn’t move me. These are just the ramblings of a punter, without any musical training for what it’s worth. I very much regret that, spending so much time listening to Ken who lived about 1/2 a mile from where I live now, I missed out on some terrific British NO bands of the time – Mike Casimir’s, Barry Martyn’s, Dan Pawson’s etc, etc. I could say I had a very narrow early jazz upbringing, but I have tried to make up for that – especially by listening to and appreciating our current young musicians.

John Petters A very considered view, Kay. I have to say that I’ve not heard recordings of Dan Pawson or Mike Casamir, but I have heard some 60s recordings of Barry’s band with Cuff and Cap’n John Handy. If you’ve not heard this by wild Bill & Brunies, give it a listen.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di-4yMei3Wc : THAT’S A PLENTY by Wild Bill Davison on Commodore 12″ 78 rpm record

Jeff Matthews Well, very interesting comments from Kay. As a musician, a lowly one perhaps, I enjoy listening but especially playing everything from old New Orleans through the various styles and in various band sizes and I always find something that fills me with joy. It isn’t about technique, although I admire that too. It’s about honesty in and toward the music. It’s also about personal preference and what resonates with each of us. That is the richness of music.

Fred Burnett About the same time I asked the question of Tony, Jazz FM, I asked a question on the Dixieland Jazz Mailing List, DJML, mainly subscribed to by musicians, “What’s the difference between New Orleans and Dixieland jazz?”. I think I started World War lll.

Peter Mark Butler Pete Lay (Editor of Just Jazz) posted the following comment on my Jazz&Jazz article which I felt should be repeated here: “Who are the jazz luminaries who are likely to step forward to the challenge. Probably only those who still believe jazz started with Charlie Parker or even John Coltrane. Music colleges are to blame. Their courses don’t base their instruction on anything pre-1940, except lip service to Louis Armstrong. Similarly, Johnny Boston, James Evans, Adrian Cox are playing our music despite everything else, certainly not helped by their peers.

“I have just witnessed this past weekend a band from Enkhuizen, The Revivalists, which has Jonny Boston on clarinet, tenor sax, and vocals. What exuberance from five youngish lads (if you want to include the drummer’s dad on string bass). Here was spirit personified, all played extremely well, and it was our music!!!

“Sorry, but us old farts will have to fade away in this country before the young musician decides it is time to revel in the music of Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Bunk Johnson, George Lewis etc, but please not another bunch of Colyer copyists – there was only one Ken Colyer, and as Percy Humphrey said of him: “he knows”.

Jonny Boston Thanks for the compliments. It was a great weekend, despite the weather. We all enjoyed ourselves.

Kay Leppard Have now listened to the Wild Bill/Brunies, John and very much enjoyed it. Perhaps I should get out more in that direction.

Kay Leppard Fred: To confuse it all, New Orleans jazz is often called dixieland in the States!?!

John Petters Glad you enjoyed Bill, Kay. There are a lot of good tracks with Bechet on Blue Note, mostly with Art Hodes, who would not have been out of place in a Colyer rhythm section. Art recorded with Baby Dodds and many other New Orleans legends.

Alyn Shipton Pete Lay is, if I may say so, wrong about music colleges. I have been teaching jazz history at the Royal Academy along with Keith Nichols for years and we give all our students a thorough grounding in jazz from the very dawn of the 20th century. I also teach the jazz history course at City University and among my students’ work this term is a brilliant dissertation on Nat Gonella. Which as it’s written by a guitar student whose playing embraces Pat Metheny, seems to me a good thing. Keith’s big band at the RAM has been playing early Ellington charts, and last year the excellent Tom Walsh played the Eldridge role in a series of concert pieces. Keith and I also did a concert of Jelly Roll music at the RAM (broadcast in the 2010 London Jazz Festival) which was fairly roundly criticised by many of the “old farts” mentioned above. Seems to me that to get a programme of Jelly’s music on the BBC was not a bad thing, but apparently it was. You can hear highlights here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gqqgl BBC Radio 3 – Discovering Music, Jelly Roll Morton, Jelly Roll Morton

Jim McIntosh I play banjo

Peter Mark Butler Whilst I appreciate your points and applaud the work you are doing to promote jazz from its very dawn, Alyn, there is a huge difference between the Royal Academy and City University and the schools in Brittany and Spain referred to in Trefor Stent’s post focussing on their achievements and challenging “Why not in the UK?” Such an approach is distinctly lacking amongst similar lower age groups in British schools. Take a look at: https://www.jazzandjazz.com/?p=3536 Encouraging Signs for Jazz in Europe, So Why Not in the UK? 

But I owe it to Pete Lay to repeat a paragraph from his editorial in the March, 2013, issue of Just Jazz: “I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”

MY CONCLUSION: TIME TO RECOGNISE THAT UK TRADITIONAL JAZZ IS AN OCEAN APART FROM THE ROOTS OF NEW ORLEANS JAZZ.

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 9

Clarinet versus Saxophone

This debate resonates loudly with Debate No 8: New Orleans & UK Traditional Jazz

Initiator:
Trefor Williams

Recently I had a close encounter while on a gig. The band was steaming and we had a strong attacking alto saxist doing his business. However, during the interval, I was confronted by a guy giving me a lecture on the necessity of having a clarinet and not a saxophone. I thought this neanderthal attitude had disappeared by now, but this guy was a definite throw-back. How sad he’s missed out on nearly one hundred years of great saxophonists. I half expected to see his body split open and an alien leap out. Later he was heard shouting about being ripped off because the club announced it would have to increase the admission by £2 next year.

Perhaps he should return to the old comforts of his “Jazz club at the end of the universe”. The trouble is there is no atmosphere there.

Trefor Williams.

Martin Bennett We still suffer from the mouldy fig listeners who haven’t yet developed a taste for saxophones. There are plenty of clubs I could name that won’t have bands that don’t have a clarinet as the main reed. Saxophone is a dirty word that has to be kept away from clubs that promote what they refer to as British Trad. This has been said to me by several club organisers who refuse to book bands with saxophones – and there are hundreds of jazz followers who think that way. Howard Murray, our reed player, was challenged by a man in Colchester Jazz Club who severely berated him for playing saxophones and soon left but not before HM had said to him ‘when I started playing music I didn’t have you in mind!’

Andrew Fawcett thought everybody liked saxophones…….

John GodsillHi Trefor, Yes it seems that English people prefer clarinets to saxophones and they feel that a clarinet is the “correct” jazz instrument! I’m a saxophone player so am aware of this. Basically English “trad” bands use clarinets and hardly ever have a saxophone, but in New Orleans the reverse is true. Two years ago I was there for 18 days and had 19 jobs

Regards,
John Godsill.

Peter Mark Butler April, 2010, John. I was there during the French Quarter Festival when you played sax with The Liberty Hall Stompers in Preservation Hall.

Chez Chesterman Eurotrad police still at work, eh?

Bob Ironside Hunt Some years ago I was playing in a particular Midlands jazz club along with clarinet and sax player Zoltan Sagi… We were getting the instruments out when a bloke sat at a front row table, arms folded, nodded towards Z’s tenor and said “Are you going to play that thing?” … to which Z replied “I thought I might….”

Without another word, the bloke got up and left, never to be seen again.

Andrew Fawcett when I was in New Orleans for about 18 hours in 1982, I went to five gigs in one night, finally crawling into bed at about 5 a.m. Only one of these was “trad”, and it was by far the lowest energy and lowest quality of all I witnessed.

Bob Ironside Hunt Theoretically “trad” shouldn’t exist in New Orleans… But there are so many ex-pats out there now that I guess they took it with them. “Trad” is a peculiarly British form, though its dubious influence spread onto the continent (particularly Germany) during the 50s/early 60s. There is an especially idiosyncratic form of the idiom we refer to as “Euro-Trad”… it has to be heard to be believed…..

Andrew Fawcett OK, I said “Trad”, but what I meant was I saw tired old New Orleans musicians playing tired old music rather poorly.

Christine Woodcock I’ve had that happen to my band. We were playing at a club run by a rabid New Orleans fan. My reed player, who had only been playing with us for a short time, picked up his alto sax, as required by the arrangement. The organiser of the club, sitting in the audience, shouted at him to put that damn thing down! My poor guy didn’t pick it up again for weeks. But what ignorance! The Sam Morgan band in the 1920s – and you can’t get more New Orleans than the Sam Morgan band! – used saxophones all the time. Grrr…

Jim Lodge Johnny Dodds, Jimmie Noone, Sidney Bechet, Lorenzo Tio, Omer Simeon, Barney Bigard, Albert Nicholas, Buster Bailey, George Lewis etc, etc all played saxophone at one time or another in a jazz context. Others who more surprisingly played the instrument occasionally include Kid Ory and Ken Colyer. How anyone faced with such evidence can claim that saxophones are unacceptable in New Orleans/Trad jazz is clearly incapable of rational thought. As an afterthought, Lester Young played wonderful jazz on the clarinet that would have sounded terrific in any jazz unit of any persuasion.

Bob Ironside Hunt What we are failing to understand here is that these so-called fans have a very restricted view of what they think is “THE” music. Lets not confuse “trad” with New Orleans style for a start… and also its different again from “dixieland”… Most of the “die-hards” in the UK jazz clubs will have grown up listening to British “trad”…. Ball, Barber and Bilk, Lightfoot etc etc… They probably would have hated Alex Welsh because his band swung in a different (American) way. We all know how the “fans” treated Humph’s sax player, Bruce Turner at Birmingham Town Hall in 1953… a big banner saying “Go Home Dirty Bopper”!!! These “fans” know nothing about New Orleans, Chicago Style, Dixieland or, God forbid, Swing….. Its just a nostalgia trip for most of them, harking back to their younger days when for a few brief years in the 50s British Trad ruled the roost.

Maggie Peplow We had a regular at the Waterworks who every time anyone picked up a saxophone would march up to the desk and demand his money back and leave. When Sammy Rimington came and we were sold out, I was advised that we could squeeze a few people in who hadn’t got tickets. Sure enough he turned up, I told him we were sold out but he said he’d phoned and been told he could get in. I then told him that I couldn’t let him have a ticket because as soon as Sammy picked up the sax he would want his money back thereby not only depriving the club of a tenner but also probably depriving a real jazz fan, who didn’t mind what Sammy played, of a ticket. He left without another word.

Jeff Matthews Interesting points indeed. I play clarinet and sax. Plus because I can read music and arrangements I have been treated with suspicion by some musicians on both sides. I confess I love clarinet in N.O. style bands. Yes I do know the frontline history too. See my doco for free on www.trad jazzonline.com. It is not bias it is preference. I do play sax and clarinet in my ‘Chicago style’ band. Some tunes suit clarinet and others benefit from a ‘voice’ change to sax. That is the musical answer to the debate to my mind. I see tired bands playing modern jazz badly too. I can give you names of musicians who play NO jazz (and modern too) who would knock your musical socks off. I saw great trad in NO. Most of the pros play all styles plus show music. They have to show energy otherwise it’s their last pay check. No different to the musicians of the 1920’s. Is music an art, entertainment or a business?

Chez Chesterman Bob Hunt has got it right. There are none so blind etc etc. Most of these critics have not even listened to the originators of what became traditional jazz – Armstrong, Oliver, Morton, Dodds, Keppad etc, so they have no knowledge of the feel and structure of that music. Most of the British players of the 40s, 50s and 60s did learn from recordings of the greats and from those discovered in the revival, like Bunk and Lewis. Most of us copied them and attempted to ape the style of our favourites, just like apprentice painters who learned their trade by copying the works of masters before evolving our own style.

However in the late fifties and beyond, when British, European and other revivalist players started to be able to make a living at playing and clubs sprang up here and on the Continent, recordings of such bands became cheaply available and the emphasis amongst the jazz public changed. They wanted to hear music played by their peers, and that music evolved into the trad and Eurotrad that abounds today. No matter, since jazz is a music which evolves and everybody is entitled to an opinion. However it is not “strictly New Orleans” jazz, it is a largely British invention – a parody if you like. Take the banjo, for instance. It was scarcely used in NO prior to the invention of recording during which it enjoyed a popularity for some three years before electric recordings got better and double basses and guitars could be properly recorded. The banjo then faded out until the American jazz collectors like Bill Russell, started putting bands together insisting on the inclusion of a banjo. But British and European bands and in particular the people who go to see them, regard the banjo, a wonderful instrument when properly played, as the essential instrument for playing traditional style jazz. However, the guitar, string bass and drums were certainly the principal rhythm section used in NO, latterly augmented by the piano. If sax players get it on the nose from the jazz ignorantii, just imagine what a traditional jazz band that chooses not to use a banjo has to put up with.

John Petters I played at a well known jazz venue in Essex, with the Gresty White Ragtimers. John Crocker was depping for Goff Dubber that night and got there early to set up. A woman walked in and saw no banjo. Where’s the banjo, she asked. JC replied, there isn’t one. She sat there with a hatchet face the whole session.

Jeff Matthews Just watching an interview with Alice Cooper, Rock Deva. He says that he fears for the next rock generation. They all wear the same clothes and have nothing distinctive about them. Probably sound the same too. I am paraphrasing and interpreting what he said. Is the same happening in classic jazz?

Peter Mark Butler I consider it important to include here Pete Lay’s opinion as Editor of Just Jazz, in his December, 2012, editorial in response to Trefor and all those who have posted comments:

“Well, well, well, what is wrong with saxophones? It seems the proverbial clarinet versus saxophone argument is rearing its head again. It is something that seems to recur every couple of decades.

“In this month’s edition [of Just Jazz], not only do we have an argument in favour of saxophones, we also an excellent thought provoking response in favour of the clarinet having its rightful place in a traditional jazz band. Then, in my presence, we have a conversation that took place with one of our top clarinettists/saxophonists, which was not only highly embarrassing, but also showed the ignorance of the chap who commented: “I do hope he doesn’t play the saxophone.” Just to say, the exchanges between the two men did bring up a very interesting point, and that is how much do our jazz club audiences know about jazz?

“From the creation of jazz in the 1900s until the New Orleans Revival and the British trad revival of the early 1950s, the saxophone had its rightful place in jazz, with it being omnipresent in most jazz bands and nobody questioned its presence.

“The blame for this ignorance lies squarely on the shoulders of the British Trad Band, which favoured the clarinet over the saxophone and thus created its own enigma.

“Some of the best jazz has been played on a saxophone – Sidney Bechet (soprano sax), Capt. John Handy (alto sax), Coleman Hawkins (tenor sax) etc, so please give the saxophone the respect it deserves.”

Pete Lay, Editor, Just Jazz

Bill Bissonnette And Pete Lay himself made a wonderful album with saxophonist George Probert.

Speakeasy Bootleg-Band We have sax and NO banjo. God Save The Duke.

Chez Chesterman The ignorance of some so-called traditional jazz fans is astounding.

Louis Lince To say nothing of some bands

Christine Woodcock In my band, we have a banjo, a sousaphone, and a guy who plays clarinet AND sax, which is what you need if you want to play classic 1920s jazz. If you don’t know the rightful place of the sax in jazz, you don’t deserve to call yourself a jazz fan. Once, playing at a jazz club, the organiser – a rabid New Orleans fan – shouted from the audience for my reed player to put that damn sax down. What! He’s never heard the Sam Morgan band? Prat.

Jim McIntosh In my band we have a bassoon, a xylophone, an accordion, bag-pipes, pan-pipes, didgeridoos and a bugle and castanets.

Christine Woodcock I’ve also got a didgeridoo. Trouble is, I haven’t mastered the circular breathing….

Jim Lodge It ain’t what you play, it’s the way that you play it. That goes equally for choice of instrument as for choice of material. Those who bind others with rules of their own making are bigots, and should be ignored.

Jim McIntosh Agreed. On Friday night I have to play solo banjo in a clock shop in Schwerin. I may even SING!! Must practice my circular drinking!

Christine Woodcock As a slide bone player, I’m not a big fan of the valve trombone. However, I AM a big fan of banjos and classic 1920s jazz. Nevertheless, I still think this is the coolest jazz clip ever: Jazz On A Summer’s Day – Jimmy Giuffre Three

Kay Leppard That Jazz on a Summer’s Day film blows me away every time I see it. Visited Newport last time we were in the US – great place.

Peter Mark Butler THIS DEBATE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. TIME TO END SUCH BRITISH TRADITIONAL JAZZ PETTINESS AND GET BACK TO NEW ORLEANS ORIGINS.

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers Debate No 10

Musicians’ Pay

Initiator:
Peter Mark Butler

A TRULY HOT ISSUE FOR BANDS, BAND LEADERS, MUSICIANS, CLUBS AND FANS!

I was copied in on an email recently regarding overseas jazz musicians and bands enquiring about potentials for UK tours and “likely remuneration”, or rather, what they should charge.

I was also copied in on the answer and what they could expect to be paid, exclusive of expenses and accommodation. An addendum was added to the effect of: “They may be on a ‘jolly’ and not expecting too much!”

I received another message the very same day from a superb jazz trumpeter, good friend and fellow Jazzer – a “younger” musician at that! He wrote:

“Hi Peter

“From the cover of the latest issue of Musician magazine: ‘the MU is concerned about musicians being asked to work for free. Work not Play is a campaign that aims to raise awareness of the issue and debunk the myth that says because we enjoy it we don’t need to be paid. The aim is simple – to ensure that all professional musicians get paid for what they do.’

“It’s food for thought. Maybe we need to be pointing this out forcefully to all the bands going out and working for 25 or 30 quid. If you are not worth a proper fee, are you worth listening to? Should you be playing in public anyway?

“The issues raised by bands and musicians about audiences and the strength of traditional jazz is undermined when they undermine the value of what they do. We won’t have a strong jazz resurgence unless and until younger players can see that they can make some sort of living from the music. And they won’t see that when leading musicians in the field are driving hundreds of miles for a £50 ‘fee’.”

“All the best.

Peter Leonard”

NOT ONLY IS THIS A HOT ISSUE, IT’S A VITAL ISSUE!

So much so that as my friend Peter says, The Musician’s Union has launched a Fair Pay Campaign under the banner of “WORK NOT PLAY”! Their website states:

“The MU [has launched] a campaign for fair pay for musicians which can be found at www.worknotplay.co.uk.

“The campaign comes in response to the growing number of examples of musicians being expected to work for free whilst other workers involved in the event are being paid, and the website highlights many individual stories as told by musicians.

“Share your comments on Twitter using #WorkNotPlayMU

“Musicians from all genres are invited to sign up and share their stories of being asked to work for no fee.”

John Smith, MU General Secretary, says:

“We are concerned at a growing trend of professional musicians not being paid for their work. In this era of illegal downloading, live revenue is incredibly important and musicians rely on it to be able to survive.

“Too many people seem to think that music and entertainment are a hobby rather than a career, and are unaware of the years of training and hard work that it takes to become a professional performer.

“It is difficult enough to earn a decent living as a professional musician these days, and, headline artists aside, it is not a highly paid profession. We’re looking to challenge the idea that musicians should be happy to work for free, and we’re delighted that so many musicians and music fans are joining up to this campaign.”

Posted: November 14, 2012

John Petters First of all, I hate the term ‘work for free’. It is grammatically incorrect – the surplus ‘for’ creeps in everywhere these days. Trad bands are their own worst enemies. Firstly, many will play for next to nothing. Secondly, they do not expect to get travel expenses. Thirdly, most of the clubs do not charge enough on the door to make it a viable profession. I’ll not mention the free admission venues!

As you know, Peter, I organised the final tour for Wild Bill & Art Hodes. I put them into proper venues and paid a good rate. I’m constantly being bombarded with requests to play at my festivals, but bringing overseas performers is not viable.

Chez Chesterman Attaboy, John! The Manchester band that I play with goes to Benelux countries, Germany and Denmark on a regular basis. Accommodation is always provided and at least one major meal per gig, usually together with audiences who happily pay good money for a good night out. But when we try to put a tour together in southern England – well – what a difference. Overseas bands, who used to play here for peanuts, have wised up and the good ones are rarely seen here now, we just get the cheapskates.

John Petters Bang on, Chez – as usual. The Europeans normally get it right. The idea that musos have to buy their own drinks is regarded as crazy by the German musos I’ve worked with. It may be unpopular to state – but it could be that the present generation of jazz clubs needs to die out before a more professional approach can be taken. There are some which are run very well – I can think of Sylvies’, Wickham Bishops & West Chiltington, Friends of Upton, etc, as examples where the fees are always good and very good promotion ensures good houses. Derek Watson has said he is also having to work harder at Wickham Bishops to, in effect, stand still. Harlow has not been good this season. We have been hit with an unfortunate number of deaths and illness amongst some of our most regular customers. The answer is to increase the publicity.

Chez Chesterman You’ve got a good core audience at Harlow, John and one with wide jazz tastes. In that respect you are a lucky lad but there’s nowt you can do about those who shuffle off. More power to your elbow.

Jeff Matthews Hot issue indeed! Timely too as I am looking at a series of gigs for 2013 and looking at the fees offered and the distances to travel. Is the gig worth doing? And that is the crux of the matter. Your trumpet professional has made a strong point. But “forcefully” suggesting that any musician play for a decent fee or not play at all is not going to work. Suggesting that someone who plays for £25 or £30 might not be of a decent standard is also not helpful and is a little high handed, even though not intended to be. There are many, many fine musicians playing today who are of pro standard, indeed might be ex pro’s and might be retired, who want to continue playing the music they love. Are you going to forcefully insist that they shouldn’t?

John Petters Good points, Jeff. However, to expect anyone to turn out – at whatever level – for £25 or £30 is not on. The Trad Jazz circuit has suffered from an amateur approach for too many years. Free boozer trad for example. How can you justify a high fee if your client can see you playing free in a boozer? Anything worth having is worth paying for. Just because a pro may be retired they should not be expected to play at cut price.

Jeff Matthews So the answer might be to accept the present musicians as they are and start to work on the clubs and venues to pay more for the bands. If they are paying good money, they will want good bands. Surely there will always be different levels of band. Top touring name bands who will always get the money they ask for and ‘boiler’ bands who keep the jazz interest going and in the minds of local audiences. After all, if it wasn’t for pub and club bands up and down the country there would be little else promoting this music and it does act as a ‘funnel’ for the better festivals and events put on by ‘names’. Take that away and I respectfully suggest that, genius musician or not, name band or not, pro or not, you will be reduced to a tiny few people wanting to see what in effect will become, a musical museum novelty act.

John Petters I think that is what it will become eventually, Jeff, unless there is a revival that grabs the young.

Jeff Matthews I agree John, nobody playing this music should be expected to accept sub pay lower than the national minimum. I am not sure how this can be changed in the present economy and audience mind set. But there must also be opportunities where people can develop their abilities and hone their craft. Professionals might find it helpful all round to educate those trying to play and promote this traditional jazz.

I believe the revival must come from middle aged musicians not necessarily young musicians only. Times have changed and attitudes amongst young musicians are different. The conditions which led to the revivalist jazz movement of the late 40’s and 50’s are no longer here. There was a passion, in some cases fuelled by political idealism. Tribal even – trad versus bebop. I wasn’t part of that. My interest, which developed later, was purely music based.

John Petters Yes, all sorts of things there, Jeff. I think the remnants of the 50s revival looked upon it as their ‘pop’ music. So often you find a nostalgia attitude. Some delved right into the roots – others stuck with the Ball – Barber – Bilk idiom. It probably needs to start again in colleges and universities, but as you have indicated, times have changed. I think it is likely, in years to come, that traditional jazz will be regarded like classical music – played in concert format. Barring a revival, I see no other reality.

Bill Bissonnette Every musician puts his own value on his own playing. The musician who will take a $50.00 gig [excuse me for using US currency values. I’m not up on my exchange rates!] is a $50.00 musician. Anybody who would ever pay him more is nuts. I stopped playing local gigs decades before I retired because I would not work for the low rates offered locally. When good friends asked me to do a gig as a personal favour and offered the local rate to me, I would say sure I’ll do it – free – as a personal favour. Come when I want. Play what I want. Leave when I want. But don’t insult me by offering anything lower than my standard fee. That’s why, as those of you who have played with me occasionally in Fritzels in New Orleans know, I never shared in the “kitty.” The idea of performing for $10.00 or $20.00 was always repulsive to me. But the idea of jamming with good friends for “kicks,” as Kid Tom would say, is OK with me anytime.

Jeff Matthews Chez’s comments are interesting as they take some of the emphasis off musicians and underline cultural differences between Europe and its attitude toward the music, and our own here in the UK. I know of one musician who played ‘trad’ across France for a number of years and he was paid generously. I know of a singer, not jazz, but classics to classic pop, who is paid exceedingly well in Austria. Perhaps we should be discussing how we change things culturally here in the UK rather than looking as closely at our jazz bands. What do you think?

Another very interesting post, this time from Bill. I think a lot of bands jam with friends for ‘kicks’ over here in the UK too. The whole purpose is to play the music not to earn money playing it. If £30 or $50 is accepted, it is to cover excessive fuel/gas costs.

Peter Mark Butler I’ll conclude this debate as far as it has gone to date, with the following quotes taken from my article “Analysing the Jazz Scene – Past, Present and Future” (Just Jazz, August, 2012):

AVOIDING PAST PITFALLS

Jazzers’ Debate No 11

BBC: “Jazz is Dead!”

Initiator:

Peter Mark Butler

BBC Radio 4 recently broadcast a programme called “Jazz is Dead”. Presenter Paul Morley interviewed performers and “passionate punters” in examining the proposition and in his introduction questioned whether, if not dead, jazz is now merely part of the “heritage industry”.

Evan Christopher : “Thank you, Peter Mark Butler. Perhaps like you, this is among my favourite subjects. Questioning whether or not “JAZZ is dead” is ludicrous. There are no degrees of deadness, and the fact that we are even having this dialogue means that jazz is, in fact, “not dead.” Should the discussion then be about the “wellness” or vitality of jazz? Maybe.

From my limited experience, whether or not jazz looks “cool” or who is listening to it or buying it are minor concerns. That said, however, the following elements, placed here in no hierarchical order, do far more damage to the ability of “jazz” to communicate meaningfully than over-bearing BBC programmes, academic blather, or sociocultural frameworks.

1) Sequins, animal print clothing, costumes of any kind and/or funny hats, etc.
2) Mediocre craftsmanship (by standards set by the historical record)
3) Histrionics, gimmickry or exaggerated “showmanship”
4) Extraneous amplification
5) Stupid band-names or musician “nick-names” (especially ones that use alliteration or rhyme or words like “hot,” “dixie,” “stompers,” etc.)
6) Relegating the music to the roles of escapism, nostalgia, sale of alcoholic beverages or the promotion of tourism.

Peter Mark Butler Jazzers, Evan is an outstanding, no, exquisite, jazz clarinetist and I value his input on Jazzers. Check him out at: http://clarinetroad.net/site.php

Jim Lodge Addressing specifically Evan Christopher’s points numbered points 1, 3 and 5:-

1) Many bands wear uniform clothing, and some musicians display eccentricity in dress – not uncommon features in the history of Jazz as I know it.
3) How about Lennie Hastings, George Melly, Cab Calloway, or “Mr Jelly”?
5) Johnny Dodds and his Black Bottom Stompers, Jelly Roll Morton and his Red Hot Peppers, Slow Drag Pavageau, Mr Five by Five, any number of Kings, Dukes, and Counts – I could go on.

My point is that historically Jazz has thrived on personality and “selling” the music. I also perceive that your own take on getting the music in the public eye involves as as one of its planks a measured application of such attention grabbing methods. For me it is about getting the balance right. We should not be over the top but equally we should avoid like the plague any hint of being over serious. I had hoped to make my point with a gentle nudge, and apologise again if I failed in that.

Ivan Halloran With all respect, the deepest, to Mr. Christopher, I now understand that he is an outstanding clarinetist, and has a vast understanding of the jazz genre, but in my ignorance, I truly believed him to be a theorist or academic of some university, with his sombre comments. I have already expressed something of this to Peter yesterday on his Timeline.

Evan Christopher Yes… I guess my comment lost something in the translation, since it was initially on Peter‘s blog. I quipped that his choice of photos, which I suppose were to suggest that jazz isn’t dead because it’s in the capable hands of a handful of young devotees, were actually substantiation that the genre has lost vitality. He asked me to elaborate, and that’s what I came up with. …Wasn’t trying to sound sombre or academic.

I acknowledge that how people view the health of the genre is subjective. Since I started performing this music, I have known people who feel “jazz” is alive and well as long as there’s a pub or Masonic lodge to jam in once a month. Others become hopeful when they see younger musicians take interest in it, regardless of their actual skill level. The BBC piece, however, is questioning the health of “jazz” based on a perceived loss of its potency as a “vital revolutionary force.” But, besides the “jazz is dead” rhetoric, I was turned off by the idea that multiplicity obscures the music’s definition. Furthermore, I loathe discussions of emotional impact vs intellectualism, or innovation vs tradition, as if they are somehow polar opposites and mutually exclusive.

My personal criteria, stated in my comment, is the ability of “jazz” to communicate meaningfully. For me, I didn’t develop a love for Jelly-Roll Morton’s music because he had a diamond in his tooth. I love Louis for his mastery. I love him in spite of things he did to be entertaining, not because of them. What bands did to market themselves in the nascent days of early jazz? Sure, it’s part of the history, but it’s far from a formula to assure that this music will maintain its relevancy.

Ivan Halloran My respect for the above comments of Mr. Christopher deepens.

Jim Lodge My thanks for your well expressed amplification of your initial post, Evan – most of which I completely agree with, especially the “vs” items. I would however respectfully suggest that “serious vs individual presentation” might be added. I did not mean that all bands and musicians should adopt a lighter approach, only that this was a permissible option, and felt that your “far more damage” etc list was in some items perhaps a proscription too far. After all, that would assume that you might wish that those of us with “mediocre craftsmanship” (in which number I would certainly include myself) should cease to inflict ourselves on a (mostly) willing public!

Peter Mark Butler Thank you Evan for taking your time out of your busy schedule to contribute such valid points. And thank you Ivan and Jim for responding. But I would ask fellow Jazzers to read these comments in the context of my “Jazz is Dead” article. I’ll simply add at this stage that I’m encouraged that my Jazzers Group and indeed my Jazz&Jazz website are resulting in such debates. It’s all part of analysing the future for jazz.

Jeff Matthews Now these posts are getting closer to the nitty gritty. It is obvious that jazz isn’t and cannot be dead. However, the way it was perceived and marketed in the past might well be past it’s ‘sell by date’. Each generation of ‘cream’ bands and musicians found their own way to promote themselves so that they earned a living. Each country did this slightly differently dependent on its culture.

The UK was broke post war and needed something to stimulate its youth. There wasn’t the snow plough approach from the media which covers everything and exposes to the public gaze only what it wants seen and can earn money from. Ideology was still part of life. Things had distinct definitions. So as I understand it, a youth saw Revivalist Jazz as something that described them as a group. Earthy, raw, gritty, rebellious, tribal, traditional against modern.

From that core of support it became popular amongst less ideological people because it was actually good fun to listen to. The core spread the word and it took off – in a time when TV was still in its infancy, there were no computers and game machines and dancing was still something that people did and spent time doing

Jazz gigs were also a good place to find a ‘mate’ – I am told.

This has all changed. So I believe we have to use the tools we now have to spread the word that jazz is alive, well and fun to listen to and get involved with. I would be very interested to hear more from Evan who has found his way to the top and also to hear from established bandleaders, club promoters, enthusiasts and pro’s as well as young musicians.

We may have moved away from straw boaters and goatee beards and that may or may not be a good thing, but we have to find something relevant to this age that we can use as a ‘tag’ which will get people’s interest. There will always be ‘cream’ performers like Evan and his contemporaries but under that creamy layer is the larger portion of the milk which through its activity at a local level will always keep jazz alive and well. We just need to be more active and learn how to do it better.

Evan Christopher This is the top? …Geez, glad I won’t have far to fall.

Peter Mark Butler Pandora’s Box and Naval Gazing come to mind! Let’s get a grip! For what it’s worth I’ll refer you all to two of my recent articles which might help Jazzers understand where I’m coming from and what I’m striving for. But when you read them please accept that my love of jazz compensates for the gaps in my knowledge of jazz and that I hope to bring to the table a sense of direction for the future of jazz. To read the articles go to: Keep Doing What You Are Doing and Analysing the Jazz Scene – Past, Present and Future. My thanks to Just Jazz editor Pete Lay for running these articles.

Jeff Matthews Hi Evan. You should see the view from where we are who are trying to swim up towards the cream. All dangling legs from our viewpoint.

Peter Mark Butler Meantime, watch out for  BBC4’s Planned Analysis of Traditional British Jazz. I’m posting this courtesy of Fred Burnett‘s Jazz North West site.

“NEWS UPDATE:

” I had an enquiry from Rebecca Mounsey at the BBC trying to contact Trevor Carlisle about his years with the Merseysippi Jazz Band during 1954-1964. I had a lovely chat with Trevor, and was able to pass on his phone number. Rebecca got back to me to tell me, ‘I’m just off the phone from speaking with Trevor, and it was a pleasure. I’m setting up an interview with him for a documentary that we are producing on Traditional British Jazz for the spring. The programme should go out in May on BBC Four, so do keep an eye out for it!.”

Peter Mark Butler It could be a fascinating follow up to their “Jazz is Dead” programme.

Fred Burnett Cheers Peter, I can’t help but wonder what slant they’ll put on it.

Peter Mark Butler Jazzers, don’t forget to watch out for this radio programme!