Terry and Melinda Lightfoot

Back in the 1950s Bob Thomas was a neighbour of Terry Lightfoot’s in Potters Bar. A jazz musician and band leader himself, Bob has wonderful memories of those days and of
Terry’s rise to stardom.

I have been a fan of New Orleans jazz for most of my life and my first 78rpm record was Louis Armstrong playing “Basin Street Blues” which I bought in the late 1940s and still have today.

I moved into my first house in 1956 in Potters Bar and a short while later whilst walking down Sunnybank Road where we lived I passed a house from which came a god awful noise which sounded as though someone was attempting to squeeze jazz out of a cat.

This turned out to be the embryonic Terry Lightfoot jazz band which to my amazement and delight, very quickly developed into one of the finest traditional bands in the country alongside the likes of Humph, Acker, Kenny and Chris.

Later I got to know Terry and Iris mainly through supplying them with new and used cars and also servicing their cars as well as the Lightfoot Band Wagon at my garage in Chalk Farm Road, Camden Town.

A very tense evening
I remember when Terry and his Jazzmen were touring as the support band with the Louis Armstrong Band. He gave me and some of my mechanics complimentary tickets to their gig at The Odeon, Hammersmith. We were servicing the Band Wagon earlier that same day, and typical to band wagon tradition the floor was littered with beer cans and comics. I told one of my staff to sweep it out but unfortunately the double bass had been left in the van without its cover.

An employee took the bass out and rested it against the side of the van. To my horror the wind blew it over, breaking the finger board off. We managed to glue it back into place but then spent a very tense evening at the gig watching the bass player slapping away rhythmically, fearful that the finger board would fall off at any minute.

Being I self confessed coward, I “forgot” to tell Terry about this incident.

Dans les Rues D’Antibes
My favourite number that Terry Lightfoot and his Jazzmen played was “Dans les Rues D’Antibes” by the great Sydney Bechet which is a favourite of my band, “The Thomcats” to this day.

I look forward to the day when I will be up there with that jazz band in the sky and all the wonderful people like Terry, Kenny and Pat, who have given us so much pleasure over the years.

Come on you young musicians, just listen to these guys’ music. I assure you they are infectious and you will not be able to resist getting involved.

Keep jazzing Terry,

Bob Thomas

Editor’s Note: Perhaps the most appropriate YouTube to accompanying Bob’s thoughts is this one starring Terry and his Jazzmen along with his daughter Melinda.

Fred Burnett has also posted a Tribute Page to Terry on Jazz North West.

Photo courtesy of Melinda Lightfoot.

Forward

Today, the very day I completed this series of Jazzers’ Debates, Kenny Ball passed away. As I wrote in a recent article in Just Jazz magazine, times have changed since the 1950s and 1960s when Kenny, along with Acker Bilk, kept jazz at the top of the charts. My longing and motivation is to see jazz restored those former heights.

Peter M Butler, Founder of Jazz&Jazz

Early in January, 2013, BBC Radio 4 broadcast a programme called “Jazz is Dead”. In May this year the BBC plans another Radio 4 programme – a documentary on “Traditional British Jazz”. So jazz can’t be dead after all. But whilst disregarding the BBC’s take on jazz, we cannot ignore the fact that jazz is ailing! 

When I launched Jazz&Jazz  back in the summer of 2011, one of my aims was to to help raise the profile of jazz by inviting bands, musicians and fans to share news and views about the jazz scene. Why? Because as a Johnny-come-lately returnee to jazz just a few years ago I was dismayed at its decline during my years away.

But because Wiktionary describes a Johnny-come-lately as, “a novice” or “upstart” and one who “thinks he can do a better job”, I need to be respectful in my approach.

So the question was how to get the inside story from the mouths of band leaders, musicians and fans?

The Facebook Jazzers Group

I hit upon the plan of launching a my Facebook Jazzers Group so that I could express my concerns, launch debates, and leave it to my fellow Jazzers to give their opinions, reach their own conclusions and even launch debates themselves.

To date, with over 220 on Jazzers and new members joining almost daily, this is proving successful. But cyberspace is ephemeral, fleeting, and no sooner is a debate launched on Jazzers than it can pass into oblivion. The solution to that? Simple: back-link the debates to Jazz&Jazz for further comment and analysis, with outcomes reported back to Jazzers.

So now is the time to begin presenting the Jazzers’ Debates. Who knows, ways forward for giving jazz a new lease of life may be found in time to preempt further conclusions reached by the BBC.

The Debates

I’ve separated the Jazzers’ Debates into the two categories below. Several debates cover some common ground. Put together, all of them contribute to the big picture. The next question was which category to cover first – the negatives or the positives? I decided upon the positives for the future prospects of jazz followed by the negatives, past pitfalls to be overcome if we are to enjoy a resurgence in the joy of jazz!

Examining Future Prospects:

• Younger Bands & Musicians
• Jazz Festivals for Younger Bands
• Mentors and Jazz Camps
• Swing Dance & LindyHop
• Jazz Revival in Europe 

Avoiding Past Pitfalls:

• New Orleans Jazz / Traditional Jazz
• Debunking Minority Myths
• Jazz Clubs and Ageing Fans
• Ageing Fans and Cherry Pickers
• Musicians’ Pay
• Jazz and the BBC

How to begin?

I was also in a quandary how to begin until I received the March, 2013, issue of Just Jazz magazine and read Pete Lay’s editorial. So I quote Pete in introducing the first two debates.

Presentation

The final question was how to present the debates – included in this post as one long screed or separately, with each post under its own heading? I decided upon the latter so each debate follows on from this introduction as a separate post.

Peter Mark Butler
Founder and Moderator of Jazz&Jazz

EXAMINING FUTURE PROSPECTS

Jazzers’ Debate No 1

Younger Jazz Bands and Musicians

Initiator

Peter Mark Butler

The best introduction to my one of my recent Jazz&Jazz features is from an email I received today from my close friend Ray in Castaic, California: “Good interview with Trefor Williams. One observation from a jazz outsider: it seems as if all the groups are quite elderly. Are there no up & coming younger jazz artists in the UK or the US or elsewhere?”

I replied, “There are, Ray, but admittedly they are few and far between. But that is changing as this feature and other posts in Jazzers show”.

Not just any old festival, this is an Inspirational Jazz Fest! www.jazzandjazz.com

Perhaps I should have rephrased my reply to say that could be changing, so before continuing the debate here is a very apt passage from Pete Lay’s Editorial in Just Jazz, March, 2013:

“We strive to promote youngsters in jazz, but I did get irritated when we received notification of the National Youth Summer School to publish. Great in principal but any youngsters wanting to attend are confronted with various criteria, funding applications, bursaries and more off-putting auditions. More importantly, I do not see any provision where youngsters will be instructed or lectured on the era of jazz which we promote and that our readers enjoy. It seems most young musicians who will attend will have already attained some level of proficiency. I do hope their teachers haven’t ignored Armstrong, Morton, Ory, Henderdson, Russell, etc!

“I understand that Alyn Shipton and Keith Nichols are certainly doing their best to keep the history of jazz alive with their pupils, and are to be congratulated. I just wish there were a lot more like them.”

Clare Gray was first to respond, commenting with a link to http://swungover.wordpress.com and an article on A Quick Note On Training Bands To Play For Dancers.

Ken Taylor then recommended we watch this video recorded at The Hive, Shrewsbury – “the young band “Brownfield Byrne Quintet went down a storm!” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqznrXpp0QQ

upon which Chris Barber commented “nice thoughtful version of one of my favourites..congratulations.”

This set the ball rolling and  to give the debate a boost I posted:

Peter Mark Butler 

IT’S TIME FOR JAZZERS TO GET INVOLVED!

Time to reinforce the aims and goals of Jazzers and Jazz&Jazz.com.

“The art of life is to know when to seize on accidents and make them milestones.” Chairman Humph. (A gem from Humphrey Lyttelton’s autobiography, “It Just Occurred to Me”).

I stumbled back into jazz just a few years ago, started to paint portraits of jazz musicians, joined the Southern Sounds New Orleans French Quarter Festival tour in 2010, and realised that jazz has reached a woeful low in the popularity stakes.

Frankly put, with ageing bands, musicians and fans, if action isn’t taken soon, jazz and in particular New Orleans jazz will simply fade away, even in New Orleans. Yet there are younger bands, musicians and fans out there to carry the torch, and they need all the support and encouragement we can give them if they are to stay on track.

One solution lies in the forging of relationships between the “oldies” and the “young’uns” – bands, musicians and fans! Cross fertilisation of the skills and thrills of jazz … forging a partnership between older, well established bands and dynamic younger bands and setting a pattern for bringing New Orleans back to the UK.

But it’s not just a matter of watching this space. We want members of the Jazzers Group to get involved. How? By inviting bands, clubs, musicians and fans to join Jazzers and work together to achieve a not so impossible lift off to a sustained revival of New Orleans Jazz, the source of all of our popular forms of music.

I would welcome a proliferation of posts along these lines from north, south, east and west. Let’s get the show on the road.

Read the “About” section of Jazzers. It has more to say about these goals.

Peter Butler
Founder of Jazz&Jazz.com & Jazzers

The following exchange of views ensued:

Martin Bennett As a generalisation, one of the main reasons for what seems to be a lack of interest in the young, is the venue itself. Most of the venues are places modern youngsters wouldn’t be seen dead in. Places full of chairs and tables are of no interest to them. People under 25 prefer to stand – as you will see at festivals and many jazz clubs in Holland, all of which have cheering youngsters to a point of overflow – places where the over 40s wouldn’t want to be seen dead in here in the UK.

Peter Mark Butler A very valid point, Martin, which we need to pay attention to! Such limited venues include pubs yet even pubs are turning jazz away these days. But fans are not prepared to pay sufficient for their jazz to make that difference. As Pete Lay recently wrote to me: “That is why the audience mentality has to change, and it will do, if we can get the younger audience on board – they are used to paying for their nights out.” Somehow we must learn from Holland and Germany. Perhaps it will take a concerted effort to get daring with venues! In fact I included a post on Jazz&Jazz recently based on developments at the Leeds Jazz Club addressing just this point: https://www.jazzandjazz.com/?p=2206 Perhaps we should check up on how Leeds is doing now.

Martin Bennett Leeds Jazz Club runs a Jump Jive dance group in conjunction with the jazz nights. It works very well and all of the Jump Jive dancers are under 30. There is a similar group of dancers from Greater Manchester which turns up at clubs suitably set up. There are no clubs I know of in Manchester working on a regular basis so they have to travel – usually to Jump Jive Bands. Leeds has it sorted.

Peter Mark Butler I believe Jeff Lewis and Speakeasy Bootleg Band are doing something similar in Liverpool, so it can happen. We need to get more on board! As I’ve stressed in my Just Jazz articles and on Jazz&Jazz, fans and even bands must learn not to be so precious and be prepared to “mix it a bit” if traditional jazz is to regroup for a revival.

Clare Gray Jive swing and similar is absolutely thriving at the moment – go to the TwinWood website http://www.twinwoodevents.com/index.html to see what they have on and pics of this year’s great events. We went and although big band is a different ‘fish’ to what most folk in this group are aiming at, there were some other decidedly more jazz-orientated bands there also, as well as a lot more of the 50’s vibe. I’m not suggesting Twinwood is the ideal venue for Trad, Dixie etc, but I think it’s likely that the young ‘keenies’ that we meet at our LindyHop classes will naturally progress to the cooler shades of jazz – in fact I am noticing a lot of them ‘liking’ tracks and bands that definitely are smoother and just as good for them to dance to. So the upshot is, keep the music alive and as public as possible. Keep on pushing it out there and they will come. I agree that it might be that pubs are a dying source – they’re up against so much attack on their profits (non smoking, rising beer prices, more people drinking at home etc) that they can’t really take a punt on bands that might not bring in the drinkers (a lot of these youngsters only drink softies anyway these days – horrors!- whatever the media says about binge drinking). So perhaps the secret is to start looking for big, open venues where jazz events might be held and start building it from there. There is interest in dinner jazz from smaller restaurants and while I know that some bands might blanche at that idea, its all getting the good stuff out there, so don’t knock it if you can get it.

Twinwood Festival is The No. 1 Vintage Music & Dance Festival! www.twinwoodevents.com Twinwood Events hosts the annual Glenn Miller Festival and Rhythm Festival at the historic Twinwood Airfield.

Martin Bennett Jeff’s a good chap and certainly does his bit over in Liverpool and has developed a wider range which works very well.

Clare Gray Good for you Peter. With your determination and contacts you’ll get this party started! Am really hoping the scene starts to open up a bit soon. I’m itching to get into something new – using the Trad, blues, dinner, dance band and other ‘grooves’ I’ve got into since the late 90’s. I’m determined to find some folk to enjoy that with. As a ‘younger’ jazz fan I find it frustratingly difficult to break in with the hardened older players who seem to enjoy ‘noodllng’ (nothing wrong with that) but don’t really want to gig or to push it much. Can’t say I blame them, but where are all those players who want to make a noise??? Get them out of the woodwork and you’ll start a fire!…..

Chez Chesterman Trouble is, if you mention the word jazz the kids will not turn up. To them jazz is a naughty word. Call it swing, play the right tempos and they’ll come flocking in. Forties swing is the one that gets everyone hopping.

Clare Gray I agree. Amongst my fellow jive swing/lindy dancers (many quite a bit younger) there’s a nose-wrinkling at the ‘J’ word – yet they’re tapping their feet and swinging along to it all the same. Perhaps you’re right – give it a different hat and they’ll all want to put it on!

Dave Mayor Members of the Bude Jive club also belong to the Bude Jazz club, most welcome they are too.

Peter Mark Butler It seems all is not lost. Yet, taking the comments received so far, there is a long way to go. To Chez and Clare I’ll respond with a conversation had at the Hemsby Autumn Parade last year. Barry Price asked the girls serving behind the bar if they liked jazz. “No!” was the answer. So, pointing to the stage he asked, “Do you like this kind of music?” And they said yes they did! So he told them this was original, traditional jazz. So the jazz that put them off could well have been ultra modern jazz – you know, the self indulgent stuff you can’t even tap your feet to!

Clare Gray Funny you should say that Peter. When I first started doing the Trad stuff with Bob Thomas, a friend and former colleague laughed when I told him and said “you’re not doing all that dreadful scatting stuff and singing to Shakespeare sonnets are you?” He thought it was hilarious and took the mickey whenever I said we had a gig . One day I was playing some trad in the car when he came with me on a business trip. He was really enjoying it and I turned and said “this is what we do”. He was quite impressed, and although I would never say he’s going to be listening to it by himself, he came along to a gig and had a good old time. I was a bit worried I might offend the group mentioning the truly ‘modern’ jazz, but in my opinion it is that stuff – where no one is playing the same tune or in the same key it seems, and the drummer appears to be building flat pack wardrobes in the background – that puts people off sometimes. This probably makes me sound like a total Philistine, but if we want to draw people in, we must start with what good old Bob calls ‘Happy Jazz’ as well as ‘Dance-y Jazz’ and then we have a better chance of keeping this bird in the air.

Peter Mark Butler I’m keeping this vital debate on the boil on Jazzers for more members to have their say. I will also cross reference it to Jazz&Jazz.com and invite followers’ comments there. We’ve reached the blatantly obvious conclusion that if “traditional” jazz is to make a comeback we, fans and musicians alike, need to be less precious about the purity of the genre. I’m all for “mixing it a bit” and am not against mainstream per se, but we shouldn’t forget the roots of New Orleans jazz and of jazz dance, because I believe if that could be reintroduced the kids would go for it and follow jazz, even if they adapted the dance styles to their own modern tastes. “New forms of jazz dance developed with new music, such as the Charleston, swing, rock and roll, and the Caribbean reggae” (Dancin’ Unlimited: http://goo.gl/X1lOu).

Oh, to be young again!

Jeff Matthews I named my band ‘The Chicago Swing Katz’ because the word ‘Jazz’ has a bad name with many people. Very sad really. I have left ‘jazz’ concerts early because even I was bored with the music. And I am an enthusiast of all kinds of ‘jazz’!

Jim Lodge For me, part of the problem seems to revolve round the “purist” attitude. Some bands and listeners (and some musicians) project an “if it isn’t a carbon copy of (insert original of choice) it’s wrong”. This leads to a situation where we end up with a glut of what “Popular Music” refers to as “Tribute Bands”, and their musician equivalents. Such a path can only lead to a joyless stultifying conformity, without life or excitement.

Jeff Matthews Ref: Jim’s purist comment, I know musicians who say that “if you are not black and born in New Orleans before 1939, you don’t play jazz”. My trip to New Orleans to attend the jazz course there showed me that many purists are equating all New Orleans jazz with the revivalist Music they heard which didn’t reflect all the different jazz and characters involved. It was a city filled to the brim with music of all kinds played by musicians of different technical abilities. Most had remarkable facility and many were highly proficient music readers. They had to be in order to survive. And there is room for all styles. It’s all wonderful music.

Tim Penn Well Jazzers – I think this may be what Peter may be talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9esH2rw-wF8&feature=g-upl Note – saxophones and electric bass!!! And this was preceded by a version of Junco Partner and followed by Ray Charles’ ‘What I Say’ (His birthday on Sept 23rd – so we paid a few tributes this night). The evening finished off with a funky version of The Meters Hey Pocky Way – which veered off into using some of the Miles Davis “So What” minor inversions and a little bit of Cecil Tayloresque Free Form piano over the Funk.

Is this a step too far for the traditional audience for Jazz? I guess only time will tell. But many of us see this 20th century evolution of New Orleans based music as something to be celebrated and embraced. But then I remember my dear departed friend Mac McGann telling how he was summarily kicked out of the trad jazz band he was playing in in the late 50s / early 60s – because he brought a guitar along to a gig instead of the tenor banjo.

Peter Mark Butler Right on the mark, Tim! If jazz is to make a comeback fans have got to accept change, or as I put it, “mixing it a bit”. After all, the story of jazz has always been about improvisation, mixing it a bit, and it’s no different today. Especially if we are to appeal to younger fans.

“Kicked out for playing guitar instead of banjo,” you say! Don’t tell Tony Rico this. Martin Bennett recently commented: “There are plenty of clubs I could name that won’t have bands that don’t have a clarinet as the main reed. Saxophone is a dirty word that has to be kept away from clubs that promote what they refer to as British Trad. This has been said to me by several club organisers who refuse to book bands with saxophones – and there are hundreds of jazz followers who think that way. Howard Murray, our reed player, was challenged by a man in Colchester Jazz Club who severely berated him for playing saxophones and soon left but not before HM had said to him ‘when I started playing music I didn’t have you in mind!'”

Peter Mark Butler An elderly fan recently cornered me to voice his criticism of a particular very impressive trombonist for being too flamboyant, “not subtle enough, not smooth enough.” At that very same gig I heard a youngster asking his mother if she could she buy him a trombone because “I want to play jazz like that!” This speaks a thousand words! Because jazz isn’t inert, it’s exuberant, dynamic as well as soulful.

Jeff Matthews May I add to the discussion by first stating that a style is a style. New Orleans, traditional jazz is a style and different sound hewed out of the western scale by years of experience and love. Although originally from New Orleans, it was developed and embraced by people around the world. It is still extremely popular wherever it is played. But since the demise of Louis Armstrong as Ambassador for jazz and in the UK, the finish of Kenny Ball’s appearance on TV in the Morecambe and Wise show, traditional jazz has had no profile. You can have the best product in the world but if nobody knows about it….!

There are many forms of trad played up and down the UK to enthusiastic fans but it is almost a forgotten style of music because of the deliberate culling of music in other forms, apart from ‘pop’ music which is played ‘for the many’ for the financial benefits of the few. The wonderful interpretation of traditional jazz by Brian Carrick is just as valid as any other even if it’s band members and fans are in the senior part of their lives. Age is not the issue nor is whether a sax is acceptable. Most bands are well past that point. Let’s just play the music.

But, what is true and to me is the null point of all of this is promotion. Not a changing of the music to accommodate ‘pop’ culture, but a promotion of the best elements of the music to the general public which consists of people of all shapes, sizes, colours, education and age. We need some of the ‘names’ in trad jazz to step forward and promote New Orleans/Traditional/Dixieland/Chicago style jazz. Call it what you may. A new set of ‘Ambassadors for the Tradition’. Where are you guys?

All that ‘ageing audience’ stuff will take care of itself if the music is brought back into the public eye. Get some good looking musicians ready who play the music well – not bending it to rock ‘n roll – but playing what we already have with heart and conviction. Then get those ‘names’ involved. Where are you Jools Holland? Where are you Jamie Cullum? Stop mis-educating people about what real jazz is and stick to some time honoured definitions.

It’s time for us jazzers to start influencing our ‘world’ and look for ways to insist that we have a cultural right to play and ‘broadcast’ our musical art. Time to make the general public aware of our music and embrace it once more. The rest will follow. And there will be bands in the Ken Colyer mode as well as those who will play jazz in a more R&B way. But people must hear it and have a choice. By the way, there are already enough ‘knock out’ musicians in the UK, young and old who already hold the professional stage. Let’s get THEM heard on jazz shows and on TV shows. Good presentation, good arrangements, good foot stomping tunes, that infectious NO rhythm. We did it in the recent past. Why not now!

Peter Mark Butler Excellent, Jeff! A couple of your lines are worth emphasising: “We need some of the ‘names’ to step forward and promote New Orleans/traditional/Dixieland/Chicago style jazz. Call it what you may. A new set of ‘Ambassadors for the Tradition’. Where are you guys?”

BETTER YET: HERE’S A CHALLENGE FOR STAR BAND LEADERS, FOR ACKER BILK, CHRIS BARBER, TERRY LIGHFOOT AND SAMMY RIMINGTON. FOR THE SAKE OF NEW ORLEANS JAZZ, TO GIVE IT THE MASSIVE REVIVAL IT NEEDS AND ENSURE IT’S FUTURE, HOW ABOUT SHARING YOUR ENDURING FAME WITH THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF MUSICIANS? BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME GREAT YOUNG BANDS READY FOR THE FULL BLAZE OF THE SPOTLIGHTS. SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO SHARE YOUR STAGES WITH THEM, TO BUILD ON THE PUBLICITY THIS WOULD ATTRACT AND SO LAUNCH A JAZZ REVIVAL TO DEFY ANY BBC CLAIMS THAT “JAZZ IS DEAD”. AND PLEASE REMEMBER TIME IS NOT ON OUR SIDE, SADLY KENNY BALL PASSED AWAY THE VERY DAY OF POSTING THIS DEBATE – 23RD MARCH, 2013.

EXAMINING FUTURE PROSPECTS

Jazzers’ Debate No 2

A Jazz Festival for Younger Bands?

Jazz Camps for Novice Musicians?

Initiator

DixieMix Jazzband

I just thought “Maybe us youngsters should start a jazz festival promoting younger bands?” But then that bypasses why I love playing the music so much – I get to share a stage, gain knowledge and listen to fantastic tales of ‘being on the road’ with guys who’ve been there and done it. Must be a happy medium? Simon

Peter Mark Butler Excellent thought and I take your point. So why not a festival of younger bands with a couple of older bands in guest slots? Worth some serious thought!

DixieMix Jazzband Possibly. That in essence is what I’ve tried to achieve with my band line up. Two stalwarts of The British jazz scene with four great younger guys (to carry their heavy items and dish out their tablets!!)

John Petters Simon, you raise an interesting idea. But you have hit the nail on the head. You gain knowledge and experience playing with older musos. I was in a similar position when I started playing. Everyone was older that I. I was lucky to find a few mentors. The other thing I considered a great privilege was to play with the few surviving veteran Americans, who taught me so much. I can remember being amazed at the gaps left in the playing of Wild Bill and Yank Lawson. There was an economy of notes. From Al Casey and Art Hodes, I got to appreciate laid back time. Records are great – and are the only option today – but that direct experience of working with these men was priceless. By the time I came on to the scene, few were left. They have all gone now.

Alyn Shipton Not quite all gone – Sir Charles Thompson will be 95 in March and he’s still playing in Japan with Yoshio Toyama among others.

DixieMix Jazzband  John. I’m with you 100%. You only get the real experience from the guys who have done it. Two gems of wisdom that have stuck with me from my first experiences of traditional jazz both came in New Orleans as a 13 year old boy! I was lucky (through a helpful introduction from Pat Halcox) to spend a lot of time with the excellent trumpeter Wendell Brunious – who had covered for Pat during his illness. Wendell gave me some great advice as I was having a lesson with him. Blowing my trumpet into the ground (trying to look cool!). He lifted my horn and pointed it out straight and said…  “you’re 13…. you have the cute factor! You can play what you like and everyone will think you’re cute cos you’re young, but boy, when you start to grow stubble you better be able to blow that horn cos you won’t have that on your side!” And if I hadn’t recovered from that, the following night we were at Preservation Hall and sat with the band on the side of the stage. The trombone play was Waldon ‘Frog’ Joseph he was well in to his 80’s and pretty frail. He turned to me as he saw me singing along and said “do you play?” As an enthusiastic 13 year old I replied “Yes… Yes. I play the trumpet!” “No you don’t!” he barked…… “you learn the trumpet! I’ve been playing 76 years and I’m still learning!!”

Super advice which I still remember and thats what I love about the music.

Many of my friends think I’m a little strange that I spend all my time hanging about with guys in their 70’s and 80’s but I count those musicians as far more genuine friends!

Jeff Matthews What a wise viewpoint Simon has. The traditional jazz scene has not died even though it is not the youth filled music of the 50’s and 60’s. It has matured. It is a community of young and old giving their talents to the music. Both learning and leaning on each other. In this way it is not separatist as the rest of the UK has become. Traditional jazz is not and in its pure form, was never ageist. The idea of having a young festival plus older well established bands is a better suggestion than having either just old bands or just young bands. As Jim Macintosh said, if I understood him correctly, we spend too much time analysing and becoming angst ridden about all of this and not enough time promoting and playing this great and happy music. Please stop putting the music into age groups – it’s is for everyone! Simon – you have it right.

John Petters Simon, you are indeed lucky. The advice you were given was sound. My friends thought I was strange. They were all into Hendrix etc and I was listening to hot jazz. I agree with Frog Joseph’s comment. First class. Keep listening.

DixieMix Jazzband Here’s an example of what we are all up against. This week I received an email from The Norfolk and Norwich Festival. Over the last 4 years we have done a total of 18 gigs for them on a cruiser on the Norfolk Broads. Every gig has in the past sold out (120 tickets).

This year the festival is dropping the jazz cruise!! They are Arts Council funded and not interested in helping local bands or popular acts. It’s such a shame for the area that they would rather bring in some chap on Mongolian Nostril flute to play to an audience of 5 than provide top class entertainment to full crowds!

Louis Lince As big an audience as 5!!! I doubt it!

DixieMix Jazzband I’m learning the nose flute ready for next year!!!

Steven Coombe If they are always sold out why not just run the gig yourself?

DixieMix Jazzband We are looking into it Steven. To run it at the same time. The only slight issue is that the Festival had an enormous advertising hit to over 100,000 with brochures. We cannot replicate that. But people I’m sure will be looking for the jazz boat around that time.

Peter Mark Butler 100,000 brochures and only one jazz boat, might well be pretty good odds. After all, the boat might capsize if you poached more than 120 fans!

DixieMix Jazzband We used to do two or three sailings each saturday throughout the festival.

John Petters Jeff, I think it is important to analyse the music we play. I did a residency in Zurich in the 80s. I always take music with me. Trevor Whiting, who you will know is an excellent player, did the same. It was the right stuff. Oliver, Armstrong, Basie Ellington, Goodman, etc. One of our band members brought music with him too – but it was a tape of his own recordings – and it showed in his playing!

Jeff Matthews John, totally agree on this. That is positive and forward moving and craftsmanlike and professional. I think it is vital for musicians to understand the history and the lives and the craft of those pioneers who developed it from basic concepts. But that is professional analysis of the tools we use. It is not the same as trying to divide the music into age groups. I am watching the BBC 2011 Proms right now. Great music. Great musicians and singers. What is important to this discussion is that there is a wide age range amongst these artists. I never have heard of anyone saying that all classical/symphony music has to be played by one age group to be successful. It is great to see young and old musicians sitting together, as a ‘family’ playing to their utmost ability – together. All having fun. As music should be. And each one has done their due diligence on the work bench for sure.

John Petters Yes Jeff, of all music, jazz isn’t an age thing. Historically musicians have always had respect for older players. Louis always acknowledged Oliver. Gene Krupa always stated Zutty, Baby and Tubby Hall were his early influences. What happened with ‘some’ musicians over here and in Europe is that they only heard Ball, Barber and Bilk and were not interested in going back to the roots. It’s the same with kids who want to play Coltrane. They need to understand Bechet first. You don’t build a house without foundations and the foundations of jazz are in New Orleans and the blues & Africa.

Jeff Matthews I was once talking with a UK based organiser of a jazz instruction course for musicians and I asked him if they covered older jazz styles from the beginning. “Yes” he said emphatically, “we go all of the way back to Charlie Parker.

Jim McIntosh The happy medium may be for you to organise the festival, but for the older guys to foot the bill?

Jeff Matthews May I suggest a festival with young bands but hosting The Original Dixieland Jazz Band. Jimmy La Rocca runs his band out of New Orleans. He is the son of Nick of course. I met up with him at a festival and persuaded him to do a video interview with me. He is a sparkling ‘Southern Gentleman’, plays excellent trumpet in all styles and I think has important things to say about the beginnings of jazz. The video also contains concert footage. It was a freezing cold night, but the music was hot. See it at www.tradjazzonline.com. Warning! It is 1.5 hours long!!! Free to watch.

Peter Mark Butler Perhaps we should explore mileage in Jim’s suggestion above – ie “for the older guys to foot the bill”. Come to that, Jeff Matthews, Pete Lay and I touched on the feasibility of launching a New Orleans style Jazz Camp in the UK (see also under Debate N0 3 on Mentoring and Jazz Clubs). Any possibility of linking the two ideas? There may even be possibilities of seeking some kind of sponsorship for that? Over to you for your thoughts Jeff. And of course other Jazzers for their valid points.

DixieMix Jazzband It’s a good idea. I used to get a lot from workshops etc as a much younger player. We were obviously lucky in Norfolk that there was a strong youth jazz teaching scene. Mainly thanks to private individuals rather than any government funded schemes. Although again the bulk of the workshops were more mainstream based so yes there could be room for one exploring earlier jazz forms.

Of course the most valuable learning happens on stage and I was always so grateful to be allowed to sit in with bands for a tune or two. (again a beautiful thing about jazz – the internationally known standard repertoire!)

Jeff Matthews I was inspired by a trip to New Orleans last June when I was offered support by the organisers of their Course dealing with early jazz. I thought we could pursue the idea here. Banu Gibson and her team loved the idea of developing New Orleans jazz ideas over here. Mix the skills levels up and put on shows each evening to develop the stagecraft. I wrote an article in Just Jazz magazine about the idea but typically received no feedback. There is interest out there. We just need to ‘cook it up a bit’.

Peter Mark Butler I want to work with Just Jazz as closely as possible and I most certainly defer to their longstanding authoritative voice. But the internet offers more immediacy for responses to such ideas, so I’m sure we would appreciate as much input as possible on these issues and possibilities. In turn it might be possible to include articles in Just Jazz to help drive things forward. Simon, you and DixieMix Jazzband have certainly stirred things up with this exchange on Jazzers. One of the reasons I launched the Jazzers Group! Let’s press on.

DixieMix Jazzband I have no intention of ‘stirring’ things up just merely enjoying the opportunity to share ideas and thoughts with you all. I guess we are all very passionate about our music which is why we should be sharing it with audiences and keeping it alive!

John Petters On a cautionary note, if you are thinking of bringing non EU bands over, there are all sorts of hurdles. I’m not up on the current regs, but such things as withholding tax, work permits, travel and accommodation costs etc would be an issue. I had to do all this when I brought Wild Bill and Art Hodes over in the 80s and it was a nightmare!

Peter Mark Butler MY CONCLUSION: YES, ITS GOOD TO REMEMBER THE FORMER GLORIES OF PAST MASTERS AND TO LEARN FROM AND REVEL IN THEIR MUSIC, BUT HAVE WE THE SPIRIT AND DYNAMISM TO RECAPTURE THAT PAST GLORY IN A MOVE FOR A MASSIVE JAZZ REVIVAL INVOLVING NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK AS WELL AS ESTABLISHED BANDS?

FOR INSTANCE, EVEN WITH TOP BANDS AND EMERGING STARS BACK AT THE 100 CLUB? TAKE A LOOK AT THIS, CAN WE RECAPTURE THOSE TIMES:

Johnny Parker Ken Colyer Careless Love www.youtube.com Personnel: Ken Colyer [trumpet] Graham Stewart [trombone] Alan Cooper [clarinet] Johnny Parker [piano] Jim Bray [bass] Dave Evans [drums]